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Clearly, you don't have a clue, Mystic. I grew up believing in a loving Father in Heaven who knew me personally, loved me deeply, and who heard and answered my prayers. I was never once told that there were certain things I needed to believe or else resign myself to eternal torment. I was never taught to see myself as some kind of a depraved creature who needed to throw myself at Jesus' feet and beg Him to save the wretched being that I was. Not once in my life have I been taught about this God you seem to think I worship. You're grossly misrepresenting what The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, and setting yourself up as some kind of an all-knowing authority on what "true Christianity" really is. You've pretty much done that for as long as you've been here on City-Data, but I hadn't expected this latest rant. I've always tried to give you some latitude, but after these last couple of posts, it looks like our relationship is back to square one -- right about where it was in 2008, the first time you made a point of bad-mouthing my church.
The reason I like the LDS is their express love of Christ and their focus on the love of Christ. If your church does NOT believe that what Jesus did on the Cross was to appease God so He would forgive us for "whatever" then I apologize and perhaps Joseph Smith had some legitimate encounter. But if the belief in Jesus is based on His sacrifice on the Cross to appease God so He would forgive us, it is patently false, period!
The reason I like the LDS is their express love of Christ and their focus on the love of Christ. If your church does NOT believe that what Jesus did on the Cross was to appease God so He would forgive us for "whatever" then I apologize and perhaps Joseph Smith had some legitimate encounter. But if the belief in Jesus is based on His sacrifice on the Cross to appease God so He would forgive us, it is patently false, period!
Well then, you owe me an apology. I really don't want to talk about it any more, Mystic.
Gosh, I had to run off and do something last couple hours,just checked back;
looks like something went sideways while I was gone, and if I triggered something I sincerely apologize to both Katzpur and Mystic
I love you both too much to ever want something like that.
Gosh, I had to run off and do something last couple hours,just checked back;
looks like something went sideways while I was gone, and if I triggered something I sincerely apologize to both Katzpur and Mystic
I love you both too much to ever want something like that.
Not your problem, CCCyou. It was all me. I get carried away in the defense of my view of God and do not pay close attention to the way I present things.
I was hoping you were paying attention. Yes, the very notion. And that of equality. What else do you call something the success of which depends upon how well we treat each other? The state of the kingdom reflects that state. All the millions praying every day for a better world, when the secret is in their own hands. We want it given to us, when we have to act it out.
We each agree or disagree with God on a daily basis. You thought I was arguing for us knocking Him over and taking His place, I guess? That's not it. We vote every day whether the kingdom comes to earth by agreeing with God or not about all kinds of things. That way we are rightly related to each other as well, not just God. Without it, we don't seem to treat each other the same way. God seems to tell us that the proper attitude to have approaching this is the one of love. If we get that right, then it won't be hard, He tells us.
The reason I like the LDS is their express love of Christ and their focus on the love of Christ. If your church does NOT believe that what Jesus did on the Cross was to appease God so He would forgive us for "whatever" then I apologize and perhaps Joseph Smith had some legitimate encounter. But if the belief in Jesus is based on His sacrifice on the Cross to appease God so He would forgive us, it is patently false, period!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Well then, you owe me an apology. I really don't want to talk about it any more, Mystic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Please accept my apology, Katz!
Mystic, my man, before you start buying white shirts and narrow black ties and enlisting in a two-year mission to Peru, you might want to peruse the Encyclopedia of Mormonism as maintained by BYU, https://eom.byu.edu/. This is a vastly updated version, greatly reflecting the increasing move away from Joseph Smith and the historical teachings. Even the original 1992 version - still widely available - was described by critics as "heavily sanitized."
Here are parts a few relevant entries to get you started. You'll see that your theology is no better fit with Mormonism than with Catholicism.
Atonement of Jesus Christ
The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foreordained but voluntary act of the Only Begotten Son of God. He offered his life, including his innocent body, blood, and spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom (1) for the effect of the Fall of Adam upon all mankind and (2) for the personal sins of all who repent, from Adam to the end of the world. Latter-day Saints believe this is the central fact, the crucial foundation, the chief doctrine, and the greatest expression of divine love in the Plan of Salvation.
Devils
As the father of lies, Satan has a disinformation campaign. He spreads false notions about himself, about God, about people, about salvation-all for the purpose of defeating acts of faith in Jesus Christ. Mortals believe his lies because the lies are pleasing to the carnal mind and because they promote or support the selfish desires of the individual who believes them. About himself, Satan tells people that there is no devil, that such an idea is wild imagination (2 Ne. 28:22). About God, Satan desires human beings to believe either that he does not exist or that he is some distant, unknowable, or forbidding being. He tells people that they are to conquer in this world according to their strength and that whatever anyone does is no crime (Alma 30:17). Favorite lies about salvation are either that it comes to everyone in spite of anything one does (Alma 21:6) or that it is reserved only for a special few insiders (Alma 31:17). These erroneous creeds of the fathers, fastened upon their children in the form of false creeds, are called in the scriptures "the chains of hell" (Alma 12:11; D&C 123:7-8).
Justice and Mercy
Justice and mercy are attributes of deity. They are also eternal principles. The "justice of God" (Alma 41:2;42:14) is a principle so fundamental that without it, "God would cease to be God" (Alma 42:13). Of equivalent significance is God's mercy, which, broadly, is the ultimate source of all of the blessings of the human race and, specifically, is the principle that allows mankind's redemption. The competing demands of justice's claim for punishment and mercy's claim for forgiveness are reconciled by the unifying power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Wrath of God
The "wrath of God" is a term usually indicating his disapproval of the deeds of the wicked and justifying the inevitable punishments that will befall them if they do not repent. Latter-day Saints believe that his response is a natural application of the law of justice (Mosiah 3:26), which requires that punishments be exacted when God's laws have been violated or the blood of innocent Saints has been shed (Morm. 8:21-41; D&C 77:8). The scriptures state that God sends cursings, judgments, and destruction upon the unbelieving and the rebellious, including all who reject the Savior or his prophets and are not willing to confess his hand in all things (D&C 1:6-13;59:21;63:6;88:85;104:8;124:48, 52; Moses 7:1). The scriptures assert that those who attempt to destroy the righteous can expect to give an account to an offended God (1 Ne. 22:16). The Lord has sometimes chastened his disobedient children through war, plague, famine, and earthquake (1 Ne. 14:15-16; D&C 63:33;87:1-6;112:24-26).
Sons of Perdition
In LDS scripture Lucifer and Cain are called Perdition, meaning "destruction" (D&C 76:26; Moses 5:24). The unembodied spirits who supported Lucifer in the war in heaven and were cast out (Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called "sons of perdition."
But if they were successors to the apostles, they'd be apostles. If you succeed someone, you assume his role. You become what he was.
Sure, I don't have a problem with that. The word "apostle" is quite general and doesn't have to have a very specific meaning. It just means "one who is sent".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I see an apostle as someone who testifies of Christ worldwide and who, along with eleven others, serves in a leadership position over the Church as a whole, maintaining the purity of doctrine and defining policies that may change as the needs of the Church change.
As far as how Apostles function within Mormonism today, we believe that they jointly hold the keys that are held individually by the Prophet (or President of the Church), whom we believe to hold the same position as Paul did in the original Church. The Apostles can only utilize these keys upon the death of the Prophet, and that is to confer those keys upon the individual who succeeds the recently deceased Prophet. The Prophet must be chosen from among the Twelve, which then leaves a vacancy in that body. Collectively, they are authorized to call and ordain someone to succeed the man who was ordained as Prophet. Thus, apostolic succession continues. Once they have chosen a replacement, the new Prophet is once again the only person on earth who hold all of the keys. Traditionally, the most senior (in years of apostolic service) Apostle becomes the new Prophet, but this is not a requirement. The twelve could theoretically choose another from within the group.
I'm glad to see that we can agree on the main principles of Apostolic Succession, even if we differ in the nuances of its application.
Our agreement ought to be a testament to our Protestant friends as evidence that "there's something there" when it comes to Apostolic Succession.
Freemasonry in the USA in 2021 is not the same animal as Freemasonry in Europe in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Why does this not cause you to question why Catholicism and Christianity remain virtually the same animal that our ignorant ancient ancestors interpreted it to be??? Evolution is the way of Reality. Why do you, Irkle, and your ilk resist it so tenaciously?
The Church is a Divine institution. As such, it has a Divine mandate and Divine protections.
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