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The problem is that the misdirection and corruption of the Good News Gospel occurred very early during the transition from oral communication to written (scripture). This allowed the Bad News corruption to be embedded in the very scripture and its interpretations that are being relied on by those claiming to teach and lead the Church in Christ's name. That travesty is extremely difficult to root out.
No it didn't. God did not abandon us. "Behold I am with you always, even to the end of the age".
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The God portrayed in the dogma by the ancient scriptures is NOT the God revealed and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus Christ on the Cross. That is about as thoroughly corrupted as it gets!
Christianity has never seen a conflict between the OT God and Jesus Christ. The problem here lies with you. There's something you need to work out within yourself / your own perceptions to reconcile this.
The problem is that the misdirection and corruption of the Good News Gospel occurred very early during the transition from oral communication to written (scripture). This allowed the Bad News corruption to be embedded in the very scripture and its interpretations that are being relied on by those claiming to teach and lead the Church in Christ's name. That travesty is extremely difficult to root out. The God portrayed in the dogma by the ancient scriptures is NOT the God revealed and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus Christ on the Cross. That is about as thoroughly corrupted as it gets!
That is a HUGE leap, considering all the other things Jesus said. Your implication that He was quoted correctly only a couple times is illogical.
The problem is that the misdirection and corruption of the Good News Gospel occurred very early during the transition from oral communication to written (scripture). This allowed the Bad News corruption to be embedded in the very scripture and its interpretations that are being relied on by those claiming to teach and lead the Church in Christ's name. That travesty is extremely difficult to root out. The God portrayed in the dogma by the ancient scriptures is NOT the God revealed and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus Christ on the Cross. That is about as thoroughly corrupted as it gets!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
No it didn't. God did not abandon us. "Behold I am with you always, even to the end of the age".
Christianity has never seen a conflict between the OT God and Jesus Christ. The problem here lies with you. There's something you need to work out within yourself / your own perceptions to reconcile this.
You can't remedy the carnal stupidity embedded in the interpretations of what Jesus did and why because it is endemic to our ignorant ancestors' belief in a wrathful God. That belief is what corrupts any and ALL their interpretations and inspirations received from God, period! Interpreting everything using the wrong belief about God's nature and motives is irredeemable without completely reinterpreting everything using the correct nature and motives of God as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross.
There is no way to reconcile Jesus Christ's actions on the Cross with a wrathful and vengeful God who would curse an entire species for a single act of disobedience by His newly created children who did not even know the concept of Good and Evil or right and wrong!!!! To compound that absurdity by believing He is SO wrathful and vengeful that He required a horrendous scourging and blood sacrifice to appease His wrath just so He could forgive us for "whatever!" takes it BEYOND the preposterous!!!
You can't remedy the carnal stupidity embedded in the interpretations of what Jesus did and why because it is endemic to our ignorant ancestors' belief in a wrathful God. That belief is what corrupts any and ALL their interpretations and inspirations received from God, period! Interpreting everything using the wrong belief about God's nature and motives is irredeemable without completely reinterpreting everything using the correct nature and motives of God as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross.
There is no way to reconcile Jesus Christ's actions on the Cross with a wrathful and vengeful God who would curse an entire species for a single act of disobedience by His newly created children who did not even know the concept of Good and Evil or right and wrong!!!! To compound that absurdity by believing He is SO wrathful and vengeful that He required a horrendous scourging and blood sacrifice to appease His wrath just so He could forgive us for "whatever!" takes it BEYOND the preposterous!!!
Like I said, the problem is yours. In some ways you misunderstand, in some ways you misrepresent; but in all ways you have to get over your own pride and arrogance. Become like a little child. Humbly ask God for the gift of faith. Ask the Blessed Virgin for guidance just like a child going to his mother. That's the hardest thing to do, but pride is the single most powerful impediment to salvation/enlightenment/spiritual maturity/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
You can't remedy the carnal stupidity embedded in the interpretations of what Jesus did and why because it is endemic to our ignorant ancestors' belief in a wrathful God. That belief is what corrupts any and ALL their interpretations and inspirations received from God, period! Interpreting everything using the wrong belief about God's nature and motives is irredeemable without completely reinterpreting everything using the correct nature and motives of God as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross.
There is no way to reconcile Jesus Christ's actions on the Cross with a wrathful and vengeful God who would curse an entire species for a single act of disobedience by His newly created children who did not even know the concept of Good and Evil or right and wrong!!!! To compound that absurdity by believing He is SO wrathful and vengeful that He required a horrendous scourging and blood sacrifice to appease His wrath just so He could forgive us for "whatever!" takes it BEYOND the preposterous!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Like I said, the problem is yours. In some ways you misunderstand, in some ways you misrepresent; but in all ways you have to get over your own pride and arrogance. Become like a little child. Humbly ask God for the gift of faith. Ask the Blessed Virgin for guidance just like a child going to his mother. That's the hardest thing to do, but pride is the single most powerful impediment to salvation/enlightenment/spiritual maturity/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
Sadly, I lose hope that you have the capacity to achieve spiritual maturity, let alone enlightenment given the strength of your indoctrination into the primitive and barbaric dogma you think accurately reflects God.
You can't remedy the carnal stupidity embedded in the interpretations of what Jesus did and why because it is endemic to our ignorant ancestors' belief in a wrathful God. That belief is what corrupts any and ALL their interpretations and inspirations received from God, period! Interpreting everything using the wrong belief about God's nature and motives is irredeemable without completely reinterpreting everything using the correct nature and motives of God as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross.
There is no way to reconcile Jesus Christ's actions on the Cross with a wrathful and vengeful God who would curse an entire species for a single act of disobedience by His newly created children who did not even know the concept of Good and Evil or right and wrong!!!! To compound that absurdity by believing He is SO wrathful and vengeful that He required a horrendous scourging and blood sacrifice to appease His wrath just so He could forgive us for "whatever!" takes it BEYOND the preposterous!!!
I take it Mystic that you've never been hunting or fishing? Now I'm not attempting to address the 'a wrathful and vengeful God' part as that is not of my beliefs nor most of Catholicism,
you'll need to take that up with fundies in perhaps a separate thread.
Rather looking at the 'blood sacrifice' part, which should properly be interpreted as 'life sacrifice',
as the 'blood' has always (in OT times)symbolized and been understood as the 'life' of that being sacrificed.
Certainly when you take game, it's life must be 'sacrificed' (blood spilled/separated) in order that it may then be subsequently partaken by you to sustain/nourish you, that your life may continue.
Of course the game is not a willing participant, but there is ONE participant who WAS willing to lay down His own life, 'so that we may have life eternal'!,
He even telling us 'there is no greater love that to lay down ones life for his friends'.
That is the Catholic view.
I take it Mystic that you've never been hunting or fishing? Now I'm not attempting to address the 'a wrathful and vengeful God' part as that is not of my beliefs nor most of Catholicism,
you'll need to take that up with fundies in perhaps a separate thread.
Rather looking at the 'blood sacrifice' part, which should properly be interpreted as 'life sacrifice',
as the 'blood' has always (in OT times)symbolized and been understood as the 'life' of that being sacrificed.
Certainly when you take game, it's life must be 'sacrificed' (blood spilled/separated) in order that it may then be subsequently partaken by you to sustain/nourish you, that your life may continue.
Of course the game is not a willing participant, but there is ONE participant who WAS willing to lay down His own life, 'so that we may have life eternal'!,
He even telling us 'there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for his friends.
That is the Catholic view.
I used to hunt to provide meat for our family early in my youth, not for sport. I was quite proud of my skill with my 22cal long rifle until I shot a rabbit and when it was dressed by my mother she could not find a wound or bullet. Apparently, I had just scared it to death. I stopped hunting after that.
Your view of Christ's sacrifice parallels my own but for different reasons than existing dogma. God did NOT need the sacrifice to grant us eternal life, our ignorant savage ancestors demanded it in their ignorance and brutality. We are spirit beings so we automatically are "born again" as spirits after our deaths and have eternal life. But we were separated from God because our spirits were too savage to join Him. We were in a kind of holding pen prior to Jesus.
We needed Jesus to achieve perfect resonance (Identity) with God's Holy Spirit of agape love in His HUMAN spirit. His perfection (Grace) connected us permanently to God. When He brought all our deceased ancestors with Him, His Grace covered all their imperfections while they were being refined out in the lake of fire as our unrepented dross will be upon our death and rebirth as spirit.
That is why God incarnated as a human. He came to achieve what none of us could! As Jesus, God was willing to bring His Holy Spirit to His human consciousness and endure as a human the inevitable consequences of our savage ancestors' ignorance and brutal wrath and vengeance. Jesus endured it because He loved us with the perfect agape love and forgiveness of God Himself. It was also to show that death is actually the way to eternal life and not to be feared and neither is God.
I've got to disagree, Mike. In the Bible, Christ's Apostles were referred to countless times as "the Twelve," indicating that they were an authoritative body of men who had a role that no one else in the Church did. The word, "apostle" is also used in several places in conjunction with the word "Prophet." I'd say that the word "disciple" is the one that is more general and that just means "follower of Christ."
Yes, we can absolutely agree on that!
I think there is a mirroring that happens between Gods thoughts, days, ways and mans thoughts, days, ways
There are the upper 12 Apostles -the 12, his servants,
and then there are lower (man’s) apostles, prophets, ministers, etc
This separation is all throughout Scripture if you look for it
Act 2:16**But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17**And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18**And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19**And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20**The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21**And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I think there is a mirroring that happens between Gods thoughts, days, ways and mans thoughts, days, ways
There are the upper 12 Apostles -the 12, his servants,
and then there are lower (man’s) apostles, prophets, ministers, etc
This separation is all throughout Scripture if you look for it
Act 2:16**But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17**And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18**And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19**And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20**The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21**And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Interesting; I'll have to keep an eye/look for that. thx!
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