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Just to add on to it and I'm curious to see what Mike's response would be....
The use of statues is something scriptures forbid. Praying to statues is forbidden. Catholics try to sugarcoat by saying they adore, not worship, the statues and that the statues serve as a guide to Jesus but again, this is against the scriptures.
Calling religious person "Father" is also against scriptures.
Not sharing wine during communion is also against scriptures. Both the bread AND the wine as His body and blood are shared by Jesus to his disciples.
There is nothing more egregious within the Catholic Church than the audacity they had to remove the cup from the people of God, especially since Jesus commanded, “Do this in remembrance of Me.”
Protestants who claim baptism is not necessary for salvation are no better since Jesus commanded believers to be immersed.
This is why I can say I am not Catholic nor Protestant and never will be.
I seriously doubt Jesus would agree that the Catholic Church is His church, the one He established on Pentecost. The church Jesus built had no creed, other than the word of God. There were no creeds of men until 325 AD. when the Nicene Creed was formulated. When the reformation started, the leaders did not dispense with creeds. They simply remodeled them. What they should have done was wipe out the creeds of men that had accumulated over the centuries and attempted instead to restore New Testament Christianity, which had been built upon Jesus & His Apostles’ teachings.
There is nothing more egregious within the Catholic Church than the audacity they had to remove the cup from the people of God, especially since Jesus commanded, “Do this in remembrance of Me.”
Protestants who claim baptism is not necessary for salvation are no better since Jesus commanded believers to be immersed.
This is why I can say I am not Catholic nor Protestant and never will be.
I seriously doubt Jesus would agree that the Catholic Church is His church, the one He established on Pentecost. The church Jesus built had no creed, other than the word of God. There were no creeds of men until 325 AD. when the Nicene Creed was formulated. When the reformation started, the leaders did not dispense with creeds. They simply remodeled them. What they should have done was wipe out the creeds of men that had accumulated over the centuries and attempted instead to restore New Testament Christianity, which had been built upon Jesus & His Apostles’ teachings.
I wish the bold had been done, but sadly it was not. It was corrupted during the intervening years (in the mists of time) to correspond to their misguided and misbegotten beliefs in a wrathful and vengeful War God as recorded in the OT (Moses). That is what Paul refers to in 2nd Corinthians 3:14-17 by the "blind minds" placing their hearts under a veil from reading Moses instead of using the Holy Spirit of Jesus to understand God.
I wish the bold had been done, but sadly it was not. It was corrupted during the intervening years (in the mists of time) to correspond to their misguided and misbegotten beliefs in a wrathful and vengeful War God as recorded in the OT (Moses). That is what Paul refers to in 2nd Corinthians 3:14-17 by the "blind minds" placing their hearts under a veil from reading Moses instead of using the Holy Spirit of Jesus to understand God.
Correct! It was not done! Not on a large scale anyway.
However, it can be done, and I believe that throughout history there have been small groups of people who have successfully restored Christianity to the way Jesus intended it to be.
It can be done by doing what the Holy Spirit directed in the New Testament. He tells us what we must do to be saved. He tells us how to worship. He tells us how to live a life pleasing to God. Do these things, and you will restore Christianity (at least on a small scale) the way God intended it to be. It’s simple, really. Just get back to the Bible!
It’s kind of like finding a two-thousand year old cake recipe. If you follow it, using the same ingredients, temperature and measurements, you will end up with the same cake that was baked long ago.
I'm not trying to belittle Mike or the Catholic faith. If there is something I do not know or maybe something I have a misunderstanding of, I'd love to know.
There is nothing more egregious within the Catholic Church than the audacity they had to remove the cup from the people of God, especially since Jesus commanded, “Do this in remembrance of Me.”
Question: Did your congregation all drink from a single cup during covid?
Question: Did your congregation all drink from a single cup during covid?
Not trying to answer for Kate.
There was only one time where I saw a Catholic church offer wine during communion and they stopped doing it when cases increased in the area.
The way around this is the alternative method of distributing the wine using the aluminum tray dispenser where everyone who partakes in the communion takes a small cup and drinks from it, then places the cup back on the tray. Not sure if this goes against scripture though since Jesus used a chalice which he shared with his disciples. I'm not sure if scripture takes into consideration the scenario where people might be sick when partaking in communion. I know the Lutheran Church (ELCA and WELS, not sure about LCMS) does this all the time. Growing up, the ELCA church I went to used a chalice which everyone drank up. I am assuming no one had any problems with it.
I'm not trying to belittle Mike or the Catholic faith. If there is something I do not know or maybe something I have a misunderstanding of, I'd love to know.
Galatians and Hebrews tells us about the need to go beyond the affiliations and indoctrinations and that is not a forced thing, it is by personal revelation and understanding
Heb 6:1**Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2**Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3**And this will we do, if God permit.
Gal 3:22**But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23**But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24**Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25**But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26**For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27**For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28**There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29**And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 5:22**But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23**Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24**And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25**If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26**Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Mike is an adherent of the Roman Catholic Church and he is not able to go outside of the boundaries of that institution and we who think of ourselves as free from that should not provoke him so much I think
We should respect his affiliation, his faith……. as he should also respect our affiliation and faith as well
Rom 14:6**He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7**For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8**For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9**For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10**But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11**For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12**So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
There was only one time where I saw a Catholic church offer wine during communion and they stopped doing it when cases increased in the area.
The way around this is the alternative method of distributing the wine using the aluminum tray dispenser where everyone who partakes in the communion takes a small cup and drinks from it, then places the cup back on the tray. Not sure if this goes against scripture though since Jesus used a chalice which he shared with his disciples. I'm not sure if scripture takes into consideration the scenario where people might be sick when partaking in communion. I know the Lutheran Church (ELCA and WELS, not sure about LCMS) does this all the time. Growing up, the ELCA church I went to used a chalice which everyone drank up. I am assuming no one had any problems with it.
A few years ago, I had the pleasure of attending a Catholic Maronite Sunday Mass. The service was beautiful, and so different from our traditional Roman Catholic Mass.
When it came time to distribute the Eucharist, wine from the chalice was also offered. While the parishioner couldn't drink from the cup, they had the option to dip the Eucharist into the wine before eating it...
A few years ago, I had the pleasure of attending a Catholic Maronite Sunday Mass. The service was beautiful, and so different from our traditional Roman Catholic Mass.
When it came time to distribute the Eucharist, wine from the chalice was also offered. While the parishioner couldn't drink from the cup, they had the option to dip the Eucharist into the wine before eating it...
...which I thought was a smart idea.
haha I remember not liking the idea of drinking the wine as a young kid. so I dipped the bread that the pastor gave me into the wine. sometimes a piece of the bread fell into the wine and then thinking of the other people kneeling close by would end up sipping the bread that fell in it lol.
There was only one time where I saw a Catholic church offer wine during communion and they stopped doing it when cases increased in the area.
The way around this is the alternative method of distributing the wine using the aluminum tray dispenser where everyone who partakes in the communion takes a small cup and drinks from it, then places the cup back on the tray. Not sure if this goes against scripture though since Jesus used a chalice which he shared with his disciples. I'm not sure if scripture takes into consideration the scenario where people might be sick when partaking in communion. I know the Lutheran Church (ELCA and WELS, not sure about LCMS) does this all the time. Growing up, the ELCA church I went to used a chalice which everyone drank up. I am assuming no one had any problems with it.
In general, Catholic Churches do not offer the wine, only the bread. I have family spread throughout the USA who are Catholic, and not one of their churches offers the wine to its congregants.
From the first to the twelfth century, the Catholic Church administered both the bread and cup. “ "Communion under both kinds was the prevailing usage in Apostolic Times." (Catholic Encyclopedia, IV, 176)
Communion "under both kinds ... abolished in 1416, by the Council of Constance" (Lives and Times of the Roman Pontiffs, I, 111)
The Roman catholic church restored the cup to the Laity in 1970 under Vatican II, however, rare is the congregation who administers both the bread and the cup.
Withholding the cup from so many for centuries was direct disobedience to the command of Christ. Sadly, it is still not being offered to the majority of Catholics today.
The example we have in the Scriptures is Jesus sharing the cup with His disciples. Would it therefore be wrong to drink from individual cups in order to not spread deadly viruses? Imho, I believe Jesus would understand.
We must not lose sight of the purpose of eating the bread and drinking the cup. He said, “Do this in remembrance of Me.” He also said that when we eat the bread and drink the cup, we proclaim His death to the world until He comes.
We have examples in Scripture that show exceptions.
“One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:23-28)
Jesus also quoted from Hosea 6:6. “But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matthew 12:7)
Jesus cares more about the hearts of men than He does about our doing everything perfectly. He is a very loving and compassionate God. He sees our hearts and knows our motives. However, to withhold the cup imho is unforgivable, and I can think of no good reason to do so, even with Covid. My congregation administers the fruit of the vine in individual cups. Jesus sees our hears and knows our motives.
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