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seems you left this one out too (purposely?) : “Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect.” (ibid. 58:2, 59:1).
No I didn’t miss it. Read it again! It was the THINGS SAID BY JESUS through the elders.
What you’re not seeing is that the elders understood that their authority came THROUGH THE THINGS SAID BY JESUS. It is by disobedience to the words of Jesus that the church at Corinth was in danger. Authority did not come from the elders themselves. It came via the word of God.
It’s obvious that Clement and the other elders, deacons and the congregation in Rome believed in Scripture Alone. Thanks for pointing it out.
It seems Pope Clement 1 would agree with your summary, even in the 1st century:
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
I have read the letter many times. I especially like
44:1 Our Apostles, too, by the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that strife would arise concerning the dignity of a bishop;
44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.
Notice the continuity. As elders passed on, other men (plural) would be appointed. A plurality of elders were to oversee each congregation.
There’s your succession. It wasn’t a succession of apostles. It was to be a succession of elders. New elders and deacons would replace those who passed on. And their authority to oversee their congregation came through the words of Jesus. Elders were never to rule by their own self proclaimed authority.
The true church is overseen by a plurality of elders just as Jesus meant it to be.
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-09-2023 at 12:50 PM..
That's not possible since the New Testament had not yet been completed and/or definitively compiled in the time of Clement.
The New Testament had not only been completed, but the various manuscripts had been copied again and again, circulated and read amongst the congregations all before the close of the first century. That is fact!
I have read the letter many times. I especially like
44:1 Our Apostles, too, by the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that strife would arise concerning the dignity of a bishop;
44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.
Notice the continuity. As elders passed on, other men (plural) would be appointed. A plurality of elders were to oversee each congregation.
There’s your succession. New elders and deacons would replace those who passed on. And their authority to oversee their congregation came through the words of Jesus. Elders were never to rule by their own self proclaimed authority.
The true church is overseen by a plurality of elders just as Jesus meant it to be.
So do you believe that all church authority is congregational; or is there a higher authority outside each individual congregation?
Hi. I'm new here. I read the first handful of posts. I'm 56 and spent the first 50 as a Catholic, a Catholic that didn't know enough of the Bible.
I have come to believe in "sola scriptura" in that what is in the Bible is complete and sufficient for salvation.
The RCC, of course, does not believe in nor practice sola scriptura. What that says to me is that the RCC believes that Christ's mission, message, and sacrifice on the cross were incomplete and that the RCC is needed to add onto all of the things that Christ and/or the Bible authors omitted.
This is one of a number of reasons that I am now a non-denominational Christian.
So do you believe that all church authority is congregational; or is there a higher authority outside each individual congregation?
All authority comes from Christ. There is no authority higher than Jesus or His word. He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords. The elders of each congregation are to oversee their flocks according to what was handed down from Christ to His apostles.
The Scriptures teach that the Elders do have authority in their congregation.
“Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in the word and doctrine’’ (1 Tim 5:17)
“Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)
Neither the apostles had/have absolute authority (unlimited power or authority). Neither the apostles nor elders then or now have the authority to change what has been laid out in God’s word. Absolute authority begins and ends with Christ.
Paul wrote, “ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1 Cor. 11:1)
Elders of each local congregation (then and now) had/have the authority to teach God’s word. They have the authority to determine what works the congregation will be involved in. They have the authority to watch over the souls of their members. They have the authority to discipline. They DO NOT have authority to change, add or take away the doctrine of Christ.
The elders had/have no authority over other congregations, not then, not now.
Acts 20:17& 28 “17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.” Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
1 Peter 5:1 – 3.
“Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
Hi. I'm new here. I read the first handful of posts. I'm 56 and spent the first 50 as a Catholic, a Catholic that didn't know enough of the Bible.
I have come to believe in "sola scriptura" in that what is in the Bible is complete and sufficient for salvation.
The RCC, of course, does not believe in nor practice sola scriptura. What that says to me is that the RCC believes that Christ's mission, message, and sacrifice on the cross were incomplete and that the RCC is needed to add onto all of the things that Christ and/or the Bible authors omitted.
This is one of a number of reasons that I am now a non-denominational Christian.
Excellent! You sound like me 45 years ago. I was raised in Catholicism and educated in a Catholic school. Once I was exposed to the Scriptures, I saw many discrepancies between Catholic teachings and God’s word. I left Catholicism and have been with a non denominational church since. I, too, believe in and follow Scripture alone.
The RCC, of course, does not believe in nor practice sola scriptura. What that says to me is that the RCC believes that Christ's mission, message, and sacrifice on the cross were incomplete and that the RCC is needed to add onto all of the things that Christ and/or the Bible authors omitted.
This is one of a number of reasons that I am now a non-denominational Christian.
Your conclusion doesn't follow at all. Jesus did not write anything that we know of, so all of His teachings - the entire deposit of Faith - were passed on orally to His Apostles. The Apostles handed them down to their successors and so on. The Catholic Church has safeguarded and promoted these teachings from the very beginning.
Everything taught by the Catholic Church was in fact taught by Christ Himself. Read the ending to the Gospel of John. It says that all the books in the world (that includes the Bible) could not contain all that Jesus said and did.
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