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Then I'm not sure what you're objecting to. Passing down the truth as given by the Apostles is just as much a part of Apostolic succession as the physical continuity via laying on of hands.
"In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them 'their own position of teaching authority'. Indeed, 'the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.'"
Can popes or bishops do what Jesus and His apostles did? Jesus gave authority to His apostles to heal all diseases, raise the dead, heal the lame, forgive sins, etc. Peter and Paul did all of these things. Popes and bishops should be able to do the same things consistently since they claim to have the same authority. They can’t. They do not have the authority Christ gave His apostles. They have no authority to pass on. They can claim it, but it is impossible for them to prove it. They can say they have authority to forgive sins, but that would be impossible to verify.
The miracles Jesus and His apostles performed demonstrated their authority. They showed themselves to be from God.
The only authority the bishops/elders had was to pass on the authority that came from the word of God. By the time the last apostle died, the faith had been once delivered to the saints in written form.
Even the apostles had no authority to create doctrine. Teachings came directly from Jesus or through the Holy Spirit, and were eventually recorded.
The apostles and all of us were given the authority to preach the gospel, to teach and to baptize by Jesus, but He never gave anyone the authority to create new teachings, not even to His chosen apostles.
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-06-2023 at 02:42 PM..
Can popes or bishops do what Jesus and His apostles did? Jesus gave authority to His apostles to heal all diseases, raise the dead, heal the lame, forgive sins, etc. Peter and Paul did all of these things.
Any believer can if they have Faith. Many clergymen have indeed been miracle-workers.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
Popes and bishops should be able to do the same things consistently since they claim to have the same authority. They can’t. They do not have the authority Christ gave His apostles.
The ability to perform miracles has much more to do with personal sanctity and faith than it does with apostolic authority.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
They have no authority to pass on. They can claim it, but it is impossible for them to prove it. They can say they have authority to forgive sins, but that would be impossible to verify.
The line of succession can indeed be traced back empirically. Whether that constitutes "proof" of anything to you is another matter.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
By the time the last apostle died, the faith had been once delivered to the saints in written form.
Is the list of books which ought to be considered Scripture part of the faith once delivered to the saints?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Even the apostles had no authority to create doctrine. Teachings came directly from Jesus or through the Holy Spirit, and were eventually recorded.
Any believer can if they have Faith. Many clergymen have indeed been miracle-workers.
The nine supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.
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The ability to perform miracles has much more to do with personal sanctity and faith than it does with apostolic authority.
That would be your opinion, which has no Biblical basis.
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“The line of succession can indeed be traced back empirically. Whether that constitutes "proof" of anything to you is another matter.”
If a teaching is not from God, then it is from men, and therefore fallible.
There is no Biblical proof that Linus was successor to Peter, or that he was THE the Bishop of Rome in the first century church. Each local congregation of New Testament churches was led by a PLURALITY of elders. It wasn’t until well into the second century that there was a departure from “the faith once delivered to the saints” when a lone elder ruled over other elders in a congregation.
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Is the list of books which ought to be considered Scripture part of the faith once delivered to the saints?
Yes, and the internal evidence of Scripture will show that the books of the New Testament were accepted from the very beginning as God breathed and authoritative. No council of men was needed to prove that they were. It is a fallacy and fantasy for the Catholic Church to claim they gave us the Bible.
The instructions were in place by the spoken word, and a very short time later by the written word of the apostles and other penmen God chose to record His directions.
It seems Pope Clement 1 would agree with your summary, even in the 1st century:
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
It seems Pope Clement 1 would agree with your summary, even in the 1st century:
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
Clement was not a “pope.” He wasn’t sole leader of the Lord’s church. There is no actual proof that he was even an elder/bishop at Rome. It’s possible he was one of the several men appointed, but we have no proof one way or the other. John, the last surviving apostle never mentioned him. If Clement was head of Christ’s church, surely we’d have heard something about him from the apostle, John, whom Jesus loved. We don’t know who the elders were at Rome. We can only speculate. The one thing we can say with all certainty is that a plurality of elders were appointed in each local congregation of the true church of Christ, which would have included Rome.
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-08-2023 at 03:10 PM..
Clement was not a “pope.” He wasn’t sole leader of the Lord’s church. There is no actual proof that he was even an elder/bishop at Rome. It’s possible he was one of the several men appointed, but we have no proof one way or the other. John, the last surviving apostle never mentioned him. If Clement was head of Christ’s church, surely we’d have heard something about him from the apostle, John, whom Jesus loved. We don’t know who the elders were at Rome. We can only speculate. The one thing we can say with all certainty is that a plurality of elders were appointed in each local congregation of the true church of Christ, which would have included Rome.
He is listed by Irenaeus and Tertullian as the bishop of Rome, holding office from 88 AD to his death in 99 AD.
He is listed by Irenaeus and Tertullian as the bishop of Rome, holding office from 88 AD to his death in 99 AD.
Irenaeus wrote a century after Clement, Tertullian even later.
Clement clearly states the appointed order set forth by Christ: Christ is of God. Jesus chose His apostles. Apostles. The apostles appointed elders/bishops.
42:2
So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both
therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.
42:4
So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their
firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops
and deacons unto them that should believe.
Clement may very well have been an elder/bishop in the church at Rome, but never does he refer to himself as “THE” head elder/bishop. He writes on behalf of the congregation of Rome and its elders/bishops & deacons.
62:1 As touching those things which befit our religion and are most useful for a virtuous life to such as would guide [their steps] in holiness and righteousness, we have written fully unto you, brethren.
62:2 For concerning faith and repentance and genuine love and temperance and sobriety and patience we have handled every argument, putting you in remembrance, that ye ought to please Almighty God in righteousness and truth and long suffering with holiness, laying aside malice and pursuing concord in love and peace, being instant in gentleness; even as our fathers, of whom we spake before,pleased Him, being lowly minded toward their Father and God and Creator and towards all men.
62:3 And we have put you in mind of these things the more gladly, since we knew well that we were writing to men who are faithful and highly accounted and have diligently searched into the oracles of the teaching of God.
63:1 Therefore it is right for us to give heed to so great and so many examples and to submit the neck and occupying the place of obedience to take our side with them that are the leaders of our souls,that ceasing from this foolish dissension we may attain unto the goal which lieth before us in truthfulness, keeping aloof from every fault.
63:2 For ye will give us great joy and gladness, if ye render obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit, and root out the unrighteous anger of your jealousy, according to the entreaty which we have made for peace and concord in this letter.
63:3 And we have also sent faithful and prudent men that have walked among usfrom youth unto old age unblamably, who shall also be witnesses between you and us.
63:4 And this we have done that ye might know that we have had, and still have, every solicitude that ye should be speedily at peace.
Like Judaism, Christians had begun to diverge into sects by then. The RCC did the succession of popes to establish itself the authentic one true church of Christ which is what Irenaeus did.
Knowing the truth should not change your faith in any way if you truly have faith.
Irenaeus wrote a century after Clement, Tertullian even later.
Clement clearly states the appointed order set forth by Christ: Christ is of God. Jesus chose His apostles. Apostles. The apostles appointed elders/bishops.
42:2
So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both
therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.
42:4
So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their
firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops
and deacons unto them that should believe.
Clement may very well have been an elder/bishop in the church at Rome, but never does he refer to himself as “THE” head elder/bishop. He writes on behalf of the congregation of Rome and its elders/bishops & deacons.
62:1 As touching those things which befit our religion and are most useful for a virtuous life to such as would guide [their steps] in holiness and righteousness, we have written fully unto you, brethren.
62:2 For concerning faith and repentance and genuine love and temperance and sobriety and patience we have handled every argument, putting you in remembrance, that ye ought to please Almighty God in righteousness and truth and long suffering with holiness, laying aside malice and pursuing concord in love and peace, being instant in gentleness; even as our fathers, of whom we spake before,pleased Him, being lowly minded toward their Father and God and Creator and towards all men.
62:3 And we have put you in mind of these things the more gladly, since we knew well that we were writing to men who are faithful and highly accounted and have diligently searched into the oracles of the teaching of God.
63:1 Therefore it is right for us to give heed to so great and so many examples and to submit the neck and occupying the place of obedience to take our side with them that are the leaders of our souls,that ceasing from this foolish dissension we may attain unto the goal which lieth before us in truthfulness, keeping aloof from every fault.
63:2 For ye will give us great joy and gladness, if ye render obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit, and root out the unrighteous anger of your jealousy, according to the entreaty which we have made for peace and concord in this letter.
63:3 And we have also sent faithful and prudent men that have walked among usfrom youth unto old age unblamably, who shall also be witnesses between you and us.
63:4 And this we have done that ye might know that we have had, and still have, every solicitude that ye should be speedily at peace.
Right there in you're own quote!
seems you left this one out too (purposely?) : “Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect.” (ibid. 58:2, 59:1).
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