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Jesus himself shows us right there at Luke 22 19-20
And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
These exact words are used in each and every Catholic mass. Why would we need to do it any other way than what Jesus himself showed us? Why would we ADD words like 'symbol' or 'like' - Jesus himself used neither!
Jesus’ words are read in the congregation I worship with each first day of the week when we remember Him and proclaim His death.
Jesus was speaking to His Apostles in Luke 22. You cannot prove that they believed that a piece of bread was Jesus’ actual body, or that the cup or its contents were His actual blood.
Can you show anywhere in God’s word where a “priest” had the power to change the bread and cup to the body and blood of Jesus?
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-12-2023 at 06:05 AM..
I was a Catholic for 50 years as I was raised that way. I didn't know a lot about the Bible but I knew enough to know that Pope John Paul II kissing the Quran was a sure sign to me that the Pope was NOT some sort of special representative of Christ here on Earth.
Historically, popes have done much worse things than kissing books. Nobody is guaranteed moral uprightness or perfect prudence, even a pope. John Paul II has already faced the judgment seat of Christ and has answered for his every action and deed, as we all one day will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Struggling Christian
I believe the church founded in Rome by Peter was legitimate, of course, but sometime thereafter it was hijacked and went down another path, teaching things not found in the original scriptures.
How do you square that with Christ's promise to Peter in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church?
You're also implying that I don't have a desire for truth.
What if it was precisely through my study of Scripture and prayer that I have come to the conclusions I have?
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
If your conclusions came precisely through your study of Scripture, then you would be using said Scripture to prove said conclusions. But you have not. Every argument you make comes from catholic theology and not the word of God.
How can you say how I would argue my case if such and such? I have found that Scripture can be used to prove all kinds of false things, so I find that style of arguing tedious and pointless.
How can you say how I would argue my case if such and such? I have found that Scripture can be used to prove all kinds of false things, so I find that style of arguing tedious and pointless.
I’m happy that you have found Scripture to prove some things false. I believe God is very pleased with you when you do. We are to contend for the faith (Jude 3). I’m sorry you find arguing from the Scriptures tedious.
How do we know that the JW’s and others teach falsely? We measure their words against God’s words! Without His word, we would not know what is false and what is true.
How do we know that the JW’s and others teach falsely? We measure their words against God’s words! Without His word, we would not know what is false and what is true.
That's only part of it. Even with Scripture, adherents of sola scriptura cannot agree on what is false and what is true.
That's only part of it. Even with Scripture, adherents of sola scriptura cannot agree on what is false and what is true.
Scripture alone is untenable and self-defeating.
I’d say not agreeing on what is false and what is true goes across the board in Christianity, even amongst Catholics. Imho, for what it’s worth, I think most disagreements come about because we tend to follow the thinking of our teachers. One of the hardest things to do is let go of what we’ve learned prior. None of us wants to be wrong. They call it cognitive dissonance.
I disagree with your last comment. The Scriptures are God-breathed. A lot of the disagreements come from poor English translations (and bias). This is why I believe using interlinears and lexicons are important. So many English words are misleading. How a person 2000 years ago viewed a word and how we view that same word are not the same.
PS I saw a poll where 2/3 of Catholics disagree with the church about same sex marriage. There is also disagreement about the “A” word, which we’re not allowed to use here. Some Catholics support it. Others do not.
Also I misunderstood your comment a couple posts ago. You’re right in that people use Scriptures to prove all sorts of false things. But that doesn’t mean the Scriptures are false. It means they are being misused (like pulling verses out of context, then stringing them together to create false doctrine).
Hey, God never said it would be easy!
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-12-2023 at 09:03 AM..
I’d say not agreeing on what is false and what is true goes across the board in Christianity, even amongst Catholics. Imho, for what it’s worth, I think most disagreements come about because we tend to follow the thinking of our teachers. One of the hardest things to do is let go of what we’ve learned prior. None of us wants to be wrong. They call it cognitive dissonance...
PS I saw a poll where 2/3 of Catholics disagree with the church about same sex marriage. There is also disagreement about the “A” word, which we’re not allowed to use here. Some Catholics support it. Others do not.
Agreed. However, the advantage of a visible, structured, and hierarchical church model is that it has the tools to officially declare things and make authoritative pronouncements. The Church has its official teachings. That some (or many!) Catholics disagree with them is unfortunate; but we all know where the Church officially stands - or at least it's actually possible to find out if we don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
I disagree with your last comment. The Scriptures are God-breathed. A lot of the disagreements come from poor English translations (and bias). This is why I believe using interlinears and lexicons are important. So many English words are misleading. How a person 2000 years ago viewed a word and how we view that same word are not the same.
Yes, the language barrier is a challenge; but it's not unique to the English language. Believers who speak other languages have the same issues. Also, God knows how language works. Did He just give us a book written in languages most people don't know and say "do your best!"? Or is there more to the rule of Faith than a book?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Also I misunderstood your comment a couple posts ago. You’re right in that people use Scriptures to prove all sorts of false things. But that doesn’t mean the Scriptures are false. It means they are being misused (like pulling verses out of context, then stringing them together to create false doctrine).
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Hey, God never said it would be easy!
Matthew 11:30 "...My yoke is easy and My burden is light"
I’d say not agreeing on what is false and what is true goes across the board in Christianity, even amongst Catholics. Imho, for what it’s worth, I think most disagreements come about because we tend to follow the thinking of our teachers. One of the hardest things to do is let go of what we’ve learned prior. None of us wants to be wrong. They call it cognitive dissonance.
I disagree with your last comment. The Scriptures are God-breathed. A lot of the disagreements come from poor English translations (and bias). This is why I believe using interlinears and lexicons are important. So many English words are misleading. How a person 2000 years ago viewed a word and how we view that same word are not the same.
PS I saw a poll where 2/3 of Catholics disagree with the church about same sex marriage. There is also disagreement about the “A” word, which we’re not allowed to use here. Some Catholics support it. Others do not.
Also I misunderstood your comment a couple posts ago. You’re right in that people use Scriptures to prove all sorts of false things. But that doesn’t mean the Scriptures are false. It means they are being misused (like pulling verses out of context, then stringing them together to create false doctrine).
Hey, God never said it would be easy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Agreed. However, the advantage of a visible, structured, and hierarchical church model is that it has the tools to officially declare things and make authoritative pronouncements. The Church has its official teachings. That some (or many!) Catholics disagree with them is unfortunate; but we all know where the Church officially stands - or at least it's actually possible to find out if we don't know.
Yes, the language barrier is a challenge; but it's not unique to the English language. Believers who speak other languages have the same issues. Also, God knows how language works. Did He just give us a book written in languages most people don't know and say "do your best!"? Or is there more to the rule of Faith than a book?
Agreed.
Matthew 11:30 "...My yoke is easy and My burden is light"
So true Kate
The Scriptures are written to the religious people about their own interactions with each other
On our (collective) way to the heavenly kingdom there is to be a progressive denial of the ‘self’
It was never said to be easy, but it can be if you let go of those affiliations, lusts, that keep one bound to the earthy and carnal ‘old creation’ type of systems
This is why Jesus says no one can not serve 2 masters
It is not wrong to be part of the old creation systems, they are there to provide structural and generational things and need people within them for this to happen and they operate over much larger times/periods/ages than the individual
What is wrong is the abuse of the religious power and privilege and the goods that come with that and that will always require the reformation and transformation of those systems and organisations
It seems to me it is all of the systems and organisations of Christianity that require that reformation and transformation in how they see each other, perceive each other, understand each other, treat each other
Jesus’ words are read in the congregation I worship with each first day of the week when we remember Him and proclaim His death.
Jesus was speaking to His Apostles in Luke 22. You cannot prove that they believed that a piece of bread was Jesus’ actual body, or that the cup or its contents were His actual blood.
Jesus gave all the proof needed - His word at John 6, Luke 22, the gospels, fulfillment of Passover, etc and even Paul affirms it 1 Cor 11:23-25 & 27-30 - otherwise how could one eat and drink judgement onto themselves if it were only 'symbols' ? And 1 Cor 10:16 - if it were only 'symbolic' then how could it be a participation - that's right, mere symbols are NOT a participation! We must particpate and share in his sufferings Rom 8:17.
Jesus even appeals to think in terms of His resurrected/glorified state - Jn6:62
But yes most prefer to remain/live/think according to the flesh Rom8:5-8 and doubt Jn6:64 & Mat 28:17.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Can you show anywhere in God’s word where a “priest” had the power to change the bread and cup to the body and blood of Jesus?
It is not by any power/holiness/righteousness of a priest - by rather by Christ's power & Truth of His Word (above verses) that the Eucharist is made manifest to those who come before Him as He prescribes (above verses).
That's only part of it. Even with Scripture, adherents of sola scriptura cannot agree on what is false and what is true.
Scripture alone is untenable and self-defeating.
Jesus preached a lifestyle...be nice, share and don't bend the knee.
He did not create any new denomination, sect or church, rules or rituals.
That happened long after his death.
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Some Catholics support it. Others do not.
