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But until we can define "the church", any such discussion has no context.
I agree
And also defining what Christianity is as well
It probably depends on the meanings of the different definitions and terms and words that all have been interpreted as ‘church’ and what the functions of those are
1Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
The Greek term for “perfect” is teleios. It means complete. See below.
Jude wrote, “3 Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints.
Yes, I believe charity, or the pure love of Christ, is above all and may be the one thing that can unite all of us as Christians.
However, Paul was expressing the fact that there is still much to come before our knowledge is perfect. That even an apostle did not yet know all truth, and everything had not yet been revealed. This will not happen until we are face to face with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 13:9 "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
This is not an argument that scripture should end, but rather, we need more revealed truth from Christ through His apostles and prophets.
Any comments on my three questions? I know you are busy, and are doing an admirable job in your discussion with our Catholic brothers/sisters.
The entire purpose of this thread is to figure out the answer to that question. Of course, I assert that the answer is the Catholic Church.
Their own translations exposed them as false religion. Its why the protestants ran. Catholicism would allow anyone to read the bible except clergy until the 1300,s. Certainly not the desire of God or his son. They want all to read the bible. Then when others read it for themselves ran from Catholicism.
Standing on both sides of wars is not God or Jesus either. Love is a true mark. There is no love at war. They even allowed the young men to kill their own brothers in Christ on the allied side for Adolf Hitler- It took throwing Jesus away to do that. The bible is clear-Return evil for evil to no one.( Rom 12:17) Love is to be returned. If your enemy is hungry-feed him, if thirsty give him a drink.( Rom 12:20)-- The followers of Jesus have beat their swords into plowshares.
My Mom became Catholic in order to marry my Father who was Catholic, though not practicing. When my sister and I left the Catholic Church in 1977, we began to study the Scriptures with my Mom. She left the Catholic Church once she saw what God’s word said. My Father died in 1970. He was Catholic in name only.
I leave the judgement of him and all Catholics in God’s hands.
Fear not! ALL are saved - eventually.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
If the teachings of the Catholic Church are not in fact from God, but mere "traditions of men", then to hell with them.
If I didn't believe that the Catholic Church teaches with the Authority of Christ, then I wouldn't follow it.
I was a Catholic for 50 years as I was raised that way. I didn't know a lot about the Bible but I knew enough to know that Pope John Paul II kissing the Quran was a sure sign to me that the Pope was NOT some sort of special representative of Christ here on Earth.
The Quran teaches that Christ is NOT the path to eternal salvation. It is a book of lies and blasphemies. I have asked myself "Would Christ have kissed such a book"? The clear answer is - NOT A CHANCE! Jesus would have tossed that book into the trash and told everyone:
"John 14:6
English Standard Version
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
And then I read verses about not being "of the world" and the RCC is DEFINITELY "of the world". In fact, they are the only faith system recognized by the world as being its own state. World leaders flock to the Vatican to get their photo ops with the Pope.
Those are just a couple of reasons why I left the RCC. I believe the church founded in Rome by Peter was legitimate, of course, but sometime thereafter it was hijacked and went down another path, teaching things not found in the original scriptures.
With that said, there are many Godly Catholics who serve Christ well and I look forward to being with them in Jesus's kingdom to come.
I could discuss these things with my mother as she was pretty open minded regarding organized religion.
But my father was a staunch Catholic that never questioned the Church's teaching.
Doesn't make either of them wrong though. Sometimes that's just the way it is regarding Christianity.
It's a matter of whose interpretation that most resonates with you.
I was Catholic for the first 50 years of my life. My father was also a "brainwashed" Catholic. He passed away in 2015 and it wasn't long after that that I realized that the RCC was NOT, at least not anymore, the church that Christ started here on Earth. But I would have NEVER told my father that his beliefs were not entirely accurate. Besides, my father was a very Godly man and he lived his life in a way that was pleasing to God, which is what matters most.
You're also implying that I don't have a desire for truth.
What if it was precisely through my study of Scripture and prayer that I have come to the conclusions I have?
If your conclusions came precisely through your study of Scripture, then you would be using said Scripture to prove said conclusions. But you have not. Every argument you make comes from catholic theology and not the word of God.
I was Catholic for the first 50 years of my life. My father was also a "brainwashed" Catholic. He passed away in 2015 and it wasn't long after that that I realized that the RCC was NOT, at least not anymore, the church that Christ started here on Earth. But I would have NEVER told my father that his beliefs were not entirely accurate. Besides, my father was a very Godly man and he lived his life in a way that was pleasing to God, which is what matters most.
I agree with you! What matters most is how we live our lives. According to God’s word, we will be judged by our deeds. I wish I could say the same about my Father as you said about yours, but I can’t. My Mom, on the other hand was a very godly woman. Her faith in God was so strong. I was blessed to have her in my life, and you were very blessed to have a godly father.
Yes, I believe charity, or the pure love of Christ, is above all and may be the one thing that can unite all of us as Christians.
However, Paul was expressing the fact that there is still much to come before our knowledge is perfect. That even an apostle did not yet know all truth, and everything had not yet been revealed. This will not happen until we are face to face with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 13:9 "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
This is not an argument that scripture should end, but rather, we need more revealed truth from Christ through His apostles and prophets.
Any comments on my three questions? I know you are busy, and are doing an admirable job in your discussion with our Catholic brothers/sisters.
I’m not sure what three questions you’re referring to, but I’m never too busy to have a discussion about God’s word. But please bear with me as this post may be rather long. I pray you take the time to read it as I spent a lot of time writing it.
In verse 8, Paul makes his point clear. The gifts the church at Corinth are dividing and arguing over are going to end. Prophecies would pass away. The speaking in various languages (tongues) would stop. The gifts of knowledge would cease. He also says LOVE would not disappear.
Keep in mind the purpose of these gifts. They were used to reveal the will of God to His people.
I agree with you that when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the perfect or complete had not come. He makes that clear when he writes, “But when that which is perfect is come.”
The questions becomes what is the perfect that is to come? What was the part that was to be done away? Why are these gifts going to cease?
In verse 9 we read, “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” The Greek word for part is meros. It means portion. This says to me that the knowledge Paul had of God’s will was not complete. What he prophesied was not complete. He had only a portion of God’s will. Piece by piece he is receiving knowledge from God.
Since the partial is referring to the limited knowledge and information the Christians had in the first century through the spiritual gifts, the most natural understanding of “the perfect” is a time when that knowledge would be complete and no longer limited.
In verse 11 Paul describes these spiritual gifts as “elementary ways” or “childish ways.” Paul is making a point that a more mature way is coming. Paul and the Corinthian Christians were living in a time of limited knowledge and understanding. But the perfect and mature was coming so that these gifts would be set aside and no longer necessary.
In verse 12, Paul describes their current condition of knowledge as seeing in a mirror dimly. Mirrors in the first century were not like mirrors today. Their mirrors were not made from glass. They saw dimly in the metal they were looking at. But when the perfect would come, Christians will be able to see so clearly that it will be like seeing face to face.
Paul continues in verse 12, “Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”
Knowledge could only be received partially. God’s new covenant was being revealed a piece at a time. Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to write Ephesians. Peter was moved by the Spirit to write his two letters. James was moved by the Spirit to write his letter. John would write his three letters as the Spirit moved him. Living in the first century was a time when God’s will was being revealed a little bit at a time. But Paul pictures a time when that will no longer happen. When the full revelation of God came, Paul says he will know fully.
Once God revealed his word and will to his apostles and prophets, these spiritual gifts that Paul is writing about would no longer be necessary. Those gifts were revealing the knowledge of God. But once the apostles and prophets wrote God’s words down, continued revelation would be unnecessary. So only three things would remain once the full revelation of God came: faith, hope, and love.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
I disagree. I do not believe the word of God anywhere teaches universal salvation. There is a thread on that topic. It’s not one I want to discuss in this thread.
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