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All authority comes from Christ. There is no authority higher than Jesus or His word. He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords. The elders of each congregation are to oversee their flocks according to what was handed down from Christ to His apostles.
The Scriptures teach that the Elders do have authority in their congregation.
“Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in the word and doctrine’’ (1 Tim 5:17)
“Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)
Neither the apostles had/have absolute authority (unlimited power or authority). Neither the apostles nor elders then or now have the authority to change what has been laid out in God’s word. Absolute authority begins and ends with Christ.
Paul wrote, “ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1 Cor. 11:1)
Elders of each local congregation (then and now) had/have the authority to teach God’s word. They have the authority to determine what works the congregation will be involved in. They have the authority to watch over the souls of their members. They have the authority to discipline. They DO NOT have authority to change, add or take away the doctrine of Christ.
The elders had/have no authority over other congregations, not then, not now.
Acts 20:17& 28 “17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.” Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
1 Peter 5:1 – 3.
“Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
Thanks for clarifying your view. It's true that all authority belongs to Christ, but the Catholic Church believes that Christ endowed His Apostles with His own Divine Authority. They teach in His Name. This is the authority of the Keys that were handed to Peter, and the authority to bind and loose. "He who hears you, hears Me".
I have come to believe in "sola scriptura" in that what is in the Bible is complete and sufficient for salvation.
I wonder how you decided which books are God's Word and which books aren't, since the Bible doesn't tell us.
If the Bible is "sufficient for salvation", then what you're really saying is that *information* in a book is sufficient for salvation. What about Christ Himself? He's an actual person and not a book. Isn't He required for salvation?
Surely you believe that Christ's death and resurrection were required to bring about our salvation. These events were recorded in Scripture, but they aren't Scripture itself. They actually took place in history.
If a person is illiterate, can they be saved since they can't read the Bible?
I wonder how you decided which books are God's Word and which books aren't, since the Bible doesn't tell us.
If the Bible is " sufficient for salvation", then what you're really saying is that *information* in a book is sufficient for salvation. What about Christ Himself? He's an actual person and not a book. Isn't He required for salvation?
Surely you believe that Christ's death and resurrection were required to bring about our salvation. These events were recorded in Scripture, but they aren't Scripture itself. They actually took place in history.
If a person is illiterate, can they be saved since they can't read the Bible?
We don't have to decide which books are God's Word because the '66' Bible books are in harmony.
They have harmonious corresponding cross-reference verses and passages.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the harmonious '66' books.
In his teachings Jesus does Not make reference to them.
Yes, the Bible is the sufficient book for salvation because the Bible is the book about Jesus.
Once a person (illiterate or not) hears the Bible's words then God can read their heart's reaction.
We don't have to decide which books are God's Word because the '66' Bible books are in harmony.
They have harmonious corresponding cross-reference verses and passages.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the harmonious '66' books.
In his teachings Jesus does Not make reference to them.
Yes, the Bible is the sufficient book for salvation because the Bible is the book about Jesus.
Once a person (illiterate or not) hears the Bible's words then God can read their heart's reaction.
WHERE in those "66 books" does Jesus say, "This is IT. This is ALL I will ever tell ANYONE about my journey here. After you guys decide what's in the bible, I will never talk to another soul, ever again" in so many words?
Seems to me that by relying on the bible...and ONLY the bible...that you, and others who think like you, are limiting God...a God who the bible says, has no limits.
And that's REALLY the whole point. Yes, the Bible is a good start, but that's ALL it is, is a START. Jesus didn't/doesn't limit himself to his apostles. And no one else. The Bible is a living breathing book. It's living and breathing because it continues ON.
The story doesn't end with Christ's crucifixion. It continued after the fact.
Jesus didn't only rise for people in 33 b.c. (or thereabout). He rose for ALL people, after that.
Who was it who said that (I'm paraphrasing) if "he" wrote EVERYTHING down that Jesus did, the world couldn't contain enough books? Do you think that's ONLY limited to back then?
WHERE in those "66 books" does Jesus say, "This is IT. This is ALL I will ever tell ANYONE about my journey here. After you guys decide what's in the bible, I will never talk to another soul, ever again" in so many words?
Seems to me that by relying on the bible...and ONLY the bible...that you, and others who think like you, are limiting God...a God who the bible says, has no limits.
And that's REALLY the whole point. Yes, the Bible is a good start, but that's ALL it is, is a START. Jesus didn't/doesn't limit himself to his apostles. And no one else. The Bible is a living breathing book. It's living and breathing because it continues ON.
The story doesn't end with Christ's crucifixion. It continued after the fact.
Jesus didn't only rise for people in 33 b.c. (or thereabout). He rose for ALL people, after that.
Who was it who said that (I'm paraphrasing) if "he" wrote EVERYTHING down that Jesus did, the world couldn't contain enough books? Do you think that's ONLY limited to back then?
Absolutely!
Matthew 4:4"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Amos 3:7"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Your conclusion doesn't follow at all. Jesus did not write anything that we know of, so all of His teachings - the entire deposit of Faith - were passed on orally to His Apostles. The Apostles handed them down to their successors and so on. The Catholic Church has safeguarded and promoted these teachings from the very beginning.
Everything taught by the Catholic Church was in fact taught by Christ Himself. Read the ending to the Gospel of John. It says that all the books in the world (that includes the Bible) could not contain all that Jesus said and did.
I’m not sure what your point is. I don’t believe I said Jesus wrote His teachings down. Jesus taught His apostles. They and others, moved by the Holy Spirit, wrote those teachings down. Copies of the gospels and epistles were sent to congregations, copied again and again. By the end of the first century, the inspired writings were complete and available to the various churches.
If by handing Jesus’ teachings down you mean the apostles and others preaching orally and committing those teachings to writing, that is true.
The apostles appointed elders/bishops in every congregation of the Lord’s church passing the teachings of Jesus onto them both orally and in writing.
Neither the apostles nor the elders they appointed had the authority to change, add or take away from the teachings of Jesus. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
I have a question for you. Did John write that “all the books of the world could not contain all that Jesus said and did?” Yes? No? I am asking you to please provide the Scripture that says this.
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-10-2023 at 05:14 AM..
WHERE in those "66 books" does Jesus say, "This is IT. This is ALL I will ever tell ANYONE about my journey here. After you guys decide what's in the bible, I will never talk to another soul, ever again" in so many words?
Seems to me that by relying on the bible...and ONLY the bible...that you, and others who think like you, are limiting God...a God who the bible says, has no limits.
And that's REALLY the whole point. Yes, the Bible is a good start, but that's ALL it is, is a START. Jesus didn't/doesn't limit himself to his apostles. And no one else. The Bible is a living breathing book. It's living and breathing because it continues ON.
The story doesn't end with Christ's crucifixion. It continued after the fact.
Jesus didn't only rise for people in 33 b.c. (or thereabout). He rose for ALL people, after that.
Who was it who said that (I'm paraphrasing) if "he" wrote EVERYTHING down that Jesus did, the world couldn't contain enough books? Do you think that's ONLY limited to back then?
Do the teachings of the Catholic Church carry more authority than the word of God? Yes? No?
We don't have to decide which books are God's Word because the '66' Bible books are in harmony. They have harmonious corresponding cross-reference verses and passages.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the harmonious '66' books.
In his teachings Jesus does Not make reference to them.
Yes, the Bible is the sufficient book for salvation because the Bible is the book about Jesus.
Once a person (illiterate or not) hears the Bible's words then God can read their heart's reaction.
Hi Mt4:4 - do you believe this because you have done the research and verified it yourself? or because someone has told you this and you believed it without verifying?
Perhaps you can explain why Heb11:25 references 2Maccabees7 , but you leave Maccabees out of your canon?
Why is Book of Enoch considered non-canonical by all when it's referenced in Jude 1:4, 1:6, 1:13, 1:14–15, 2 Peter 2:4; 3:13, [22] [23] and John 7:38 [24] ?
These are just two of hundreds of references that blow-up your harmonious with 66 theory - perhaps you can explain?
The RCC, of course, does not believe in nor practice sola scriptura. What that says to me is that the RCC believes that Christ's mission, message, and sacrifice on the cross were incomplete and that the RCC is needed to add onto all of the things that Christ and/or the Bible authors omitted.
This is one of a number of reasons that I am now a non-denominational Christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Your conclusion doesn't follow at all. Jesus did not write anything that we know of, so all of His teachings - the entire deposit of Faith - were passed on orally to His Apostles. The Apostles handed them down to their successors and so on. The Catholic Church has safeguarded and promoted these teachings from the very beginning.
Everything taught by the Catholic Church was in fact taught by Christ Himself. Read the ending to the Gospel of John. It says that all the books in the world (that includes the Bible) could not contain all that Jesus said and did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
I’m not sure what your point is. I don’t believe I said Jesus wrote His teachings down.
Don't worry about it; I was not responding to you, but to another poster
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Neither the apostles nor the elders they appointed had the authority to change, add or take away from the teachings of Jesus. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
I agree and have no reason to try and prove otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
I have a question for you. Did John write that “all the books of the world could not contain all that Jesus said and did?” Yes? No? I am asking you to please provide the Scripture that says this.
I was referencing John 21:25. Tradition says that the Apostle John did in fact write the Gospel of John. The Fathers attribute authorship to John. Do you dispute that John wrote the Gospel named for him?
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