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How is this relevant? Of course a woman cannot serve as a priest or overseer. There is no provision for that, and it's not ontologically possible.
I'm sorry, I know it seems like a ridiculous question. I'm trying to understand what you would use to disqualify a female person from the office of elder. Would you the passage we are discussing or something else?
I'm sorry, I know it seems like a ridiculous question. I'm trying to understand what you would use to disqualify a female person from the office of elder. Would you the passage we are discussing or something else?
Ordination of women is not relevant to this thread.
Jesus did not ordain any women, and there are no women in the Apostolic succession. Paul did not allow women to speak in the churches. A woman cannot be a father. Scripture, tradition, and nature itself tell us that holy orders cannot be conferred upon a woman.
Ordination of women is not relevant to this thread.
Jesus did not ordain any women, and there are no women in the Apostolic succession. Paul did not allow women to speak in the churches. A woman cannot be a father. Scripture, tradition, and nature itself tell us that holy orders cannot be conferred upon a woman.
The Lord has used Woman to preach when all of the men were worthless at the time. You can not discount that.
John Sung was converted when he heard the Gospel preached at a church by a 15 year old girl. It touched him so deeply that he went back every night she preached.
So Woman can and are used by the Most High God when men are to worthless to use.
The Lord has used Woman to preach when all of the men were worthless at the time. You can not discount that.
John Sung was converted when he heard the Gospel preached at a church by a 15 year old girl. It touched him so deeply that he went back every night she preached.
So Woman can and are used by the Most High God when men are to worthless to use.
God can do whatever He wants. We, however, cannot. We're talking about ordination, which has objective criteria.
Ordination of women is not relevant to this thread.
Jesus did not ordain any women, and there are no women in the Apostolic succession. Paul did not allow women to speak in the churches. A woman cannot be a father. Scripture, tradition, and nature itself tell us that holy orders cannot be conferred upon a woman.
I don't disagree. I'm trying to figure out how you use the bible as authority and this subject, the appointment of an elder, is helping me to understand that.
When I said the pope does not qualify, I referred to the criteria Paul gives for the appointment of an elder. God has seen fit to give us what He requires, in 2 different places. I said that a single person does not qualify because they are not married and have no believing children. You said those qualifications only apply to a married person. We know with 100% certainty, that a married man with believing children is qualified. What level of certainty can we have of a person that Paul makes ZERO mention of? Using that logic, Paul also makes ZERO mention of a female person so maybe husband of one wife only applies to a male person. One could argue that due to the culture at that time, women were viewed as subordinate. So today now that we are more enlightened, that archaic thinking only applied back then and in this culture women can be put in the role.
I agree with what you said about women because that is what is WRITTEN in the bible. You know before Paul left the earth he said men would twist things. from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them
When we deviate from what is written things become gray and things can be brought in that were not intended. I suggest to you this is what that looks like. Appointing a man that does not meet what is WRITTEN.
I don't disagree. I'm trying to figure out how you use the bible as authority and this subject, the appointment of an elder, is helping me to understand that.
When I said the pope does not qualify, I referred to the criteria Paul gives for the appointment of an elder. God has seen fit to give us what He requires, in 2 different places. I said that a single person does not qualify because they are not married and have no believing children. You said those qualifications only apply to a married person. We know with 100% certainty, that a married man with believing children is qualified. What level of certainty can we have of a person that Paul makes ZERO mention of? Using that logic, Paul also makes ZERO mention of a female person so maybe husband of one wife only applies to a male person. One could argue that due to the culture at that time, women were viewed as subordinate. So today now that we are more enlightened, that archaic thinking only applied back then and in this culture women can be put in the role.
I agree with what you said about women because that is what is WRITTEN in the bible. You know before Paul left the earth he said men would twist things. from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them
When we deviate from what is written things become gray and things can be brought in that were not intended. I suggest to you this is what that looks like. Appointing a man that does not meet what is WRITTEN.
Paul himself was celibate; so you are suggesting that he disqualified himself from ordination, even though we know that he was ordained. Paul ordained Timothy, so he must have himself been ordained.
Paul himself was celibate; so you are suggesting that he disqualified himself from ordination, even though we know that he was ordained. Paul ordained Timothy, so he must have himself been ordained.
As far as it has been revealed to us, Paul was not an elder. We can conclude Peter was married and it has been revealed to us he was an elder. So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
What I'm trying to stress and hope that you seriously consider is that when we stick with what what is written, we are 100% certain we are doing God's will. When a anyone tells us something that isn't written or does not agree, I strongly suggest we do not do it. Where my eternal destiny is concerned, I can't go wrong with 100% certainty and do not go beyond what is written. In a case like this, why take the chance. Is there not any or enough married men with believing children. We have 3 in a group of about 125 and more that are qualified.
I don't know who I posted this to but it deserves repeating. In 1 Kings 13, God sent a prophet on a mission. He gave him specific instructions. When first confronted, he repeated those instructions and stuck to them. Then the second time he was challenged, he was lied to by a man of God. He must of heard what he wanted to hear so he disobeyed what God told him and did what the man told him. God sent a lion to kill him. He knew with 100% certainty God's instructions. He even repeated them and obeyed them the first time. For what ever reason, he listened to man who told him what contradicted God's instructions and paid the price.
For years I struggled with this story because he was only doing what a man of God told him. Over the years I've come to realize his crime. He knew without a doubt God's word but chose to follow a mans word that he was not certain about. I see it play out all the time.
I miss read your reply. I BELIEVE you didn't answer my question. Do you believe Paul gave us God's word?
No.
I believe Paul taught what he believed was right for the church as he saw it in that time and place. The man was responsible for the spread of Christianity beyond its obscure roots in a tiny nothing corner of the Roman Empire. The message of redemption and loving one another caught fire because he carried the torch by ship around the Mediterranean. He was the perfect choice--a learned Jew and a Roman citizen and tenacious as anything. But he was a man, and a man writing letters to specific groups in specific places. We can find value in his words to apply to our lives today, but in other areas, it's no more relevant to us today than worrying over what to do if our ox gores another's servant.
Ordination of women is not relevant to this thread.
Jesus did not ordain any women, and there are no women in the Apostolic succession. Paul did not allow women to speak in the churches. A woman cannot be a father. Scripture, tradition, and nature itself tell us that holy orders cannot be conferred upon a woman.
The Lord has used Woman to preach when all of the men were worthless at the time. You can not discount that.
John Sung was converted when he heard the Gospel preached at a church by a 15 year old girl. It touched him so deeply that he went back every night she preached.
So Woman can and are used by the Most High God when men are to worthless to use.
I find at Luke 8:1-3 that women were used because they ministered to the needs of the disciples.
They could have provided food as in shopping and cooking meals for them.
Perhaps make or mend clothing. Even contribute a monetary donation.
Provide shelter, kind of like a 1st-century bed and breakfast for them.
All this to help them stay and serve in the ministry doing the spiritual work of Matthew 24:14.
ALL were to be part of Jesus' instructions found at Acts of the Apostles 1:8
However, positions of oversight in the congregation is only for spiritually older men - 1st Timothy 3; Titus 1 and 2
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