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What I don't get is how anyone can claim apostolic succession in the absence of apostles? To have apostolic succession, you'd have to have apostles ordaining new apostles when the original ones died, as was the case early on in Christianity. But once that practiced ceased, once all of the apostles had died without the successors being ordained, apostolic succession clearly existed no more.
This is where our disconnect lies. We don't believe that the practice ever ceased, while you take "The Great Apostasy" as a given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Bishops, apostles, popes... the words aren't interchangeable
True
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
and no bishop was ever called by an apostle to be a pope.
You're making an assumption here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Besides, the word "Pope" wasn't even used by the Catholic Church until the 10th century. Going backwards from there and referring to ever bishop of Rome before that time as "Pope" definitely doesn't do anything to prove that any of them were duly ordained and were in the same line of succession as the Apostle Peter.
"Pope" just means "Father". It's nothing but a nickname and is really not even an official title. What we've called the "pope" from *allegedly* the 10th century as you claim has always just been the Bishop of Rome, though his official title is actually much longer than that...
This is where our disconnect lies. We don't believe that the practice ever ceased, while you take "The Great Apostasy" as a given.
True
You're making an assumption here.
"Pope" just means "Father". It's nothing but a nickname and is really not even an official title. What we've called the "pope" from *allegedly* the 10th century as you claim has always just been the Bishop of Rome, though his official title is actually much longer than that...
We don't even really see "Bishop" as the RCC considers one in the NT, much less any bishop being elevated above any else.
We don't even really see "Bishop" as the RCC considers one in the NT, much less any bishop being elevated above any else.
Peter was "elevated" over the other Apostles. See below from New Advent:
Growing prominence among the Twelve
Among the Twelve Peter soon became conspicuous. Though of irresolute character, he clings with the greatest fidelity, firmness of faith, and inward love to the Saviour; rash alike in word and act, he is full of zeal and enthusiasm, though momentarily easily accessible to external influences and intimidated by difficulties. The more prominent the Apostles become in the Evangelical narrative, the more conspicuous does Peter appear as the first among them. In the list of the Twelve on the occasion of their solemn call to the Apostolate, not only does Peter stand always at their head, but the surname Petrus given him by Christ is especially emphasized (Matthew 10:2, Mark 3:14-16, Luke 6:13-14). On various occasions Peter speaks in the name of the other Apostles (Matthew 15:15; 19:27; Luke 12:41, etc.). When Christ's words are addressed to all the Apostles, Peter answers in their name (e.g., Matthew 16:16). Frequently the Saviour turns specially to Peter (Matthew 26:40; Luke 22:31, etc.).
Very characteristic is the expression of true fidelity to Jesus, which Peter addressed to Him in the name of the other Apostles. Christ, after He had spoken of the mystery of the reception of His Body and Blood (John 6:22 sqq.) and many of His disciples had left Him, asked the Twelve if they too should leave Him; Peter's answer comes immediately: "Lord to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Holy One of God" (Vulgate "thou art the Christ, the Son of God"). Christ Himself unmistakably accords Peter a special precedence and the first place among the Apostles, and designates him for such on various occasions. Peter was one of the three Apostles (with James and John) who were with Christ on certain special occasions the raising of the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Mark 5:37; Luke 8:51); the Transfiguration of Christ (Matthew 17:1; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:28), the Agony in the Garden of Gethsemani (Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33). On several occasions also Christ favoured him above all the others; He enters Peter's boat on Lake Genesareth to preach to the multitude on the shore (Luke 5:3); when He was miraculously walking upon the waters, He called Peter to come to Him across the lake (Matthew 14:28 sqq.); He sent him to the lake to catch the fish in whose mouth Peter found the stater to pay as tribute (Matthew 17:24 sqq.).
Peter becomes head of the apostles
In especially solemn fashion Christ accentuated Peter's precedence among the Apostles, when, after Peter had recognized Him as the Messias, He promised that he would be head of His flock. Jesus was then dwelling with His Apostles in the vicinity of Caesarea Philippi, engaged on His work of salvation. As Christ's coming agreed so little in power and glory with the expectations of the Messias, many different views concerning Him were current. While journeying along with His Apostles, Jesus asks them: "Whom do men say that the Son of man is?" The Apostles answered: "Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets". Jesus said to them: "But whom do you say that I am?" Simon said: "Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God". And Jesus answering said to him: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church [ekklesian], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven". Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ (Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-21).
By the word "rock" the Saviour cannot have meant Himself, but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for "Peter" and "rock". His statement then admits of but one explanation, namely, that He wishes to make Peter the head of the whole community of those who believed in Him as the true Messias; that through this foundation (Peter) the Kingdom of Christ would be unconquerable; that the spiritual guidance of the faithful was placed in the hands of Peter, as the special representative of Christ. This meaning becomes so much the clearer when we remember that the words "bind" and "loose" are not metaphorical, but Jewish juridical terms. It is also clear that the position of Peter among the other Apostles and in the Christian community was the basis for the Kingdom of God on earth, that is, the Church of Christ. Peter was personally installed as Head of the Apostles by Christ Himself. This foundation created for the Church by its Founder could not disappear with the person of Peter, but was intended to continue and did continue (as actual history shows) in the primacy of the Roman Church and its bishops.
Peter was "elevated" over the other Apostles. See below from New Advent:
Growing prominence among the Twelve
Among the Twelve Peter soon became conspicuous. Though of irresolute character, he clings with the greatest fidelity, firmness of faith, and inward love to the Saviour; rash alike in word and act, he is full of zeal and enthusiasm, though momentarily easily accessible to external influences and intimidated by difficulties. The more prominent the Apostles become in the Evangelical narrative, the more conspicuous does Peter appear as the first among them. In the list of the Twelve on the occasion of their solemn call to the Apostolate, not only does Peter stand always at their head, but the surname Petrus given him by Christ is especially emphasized (Matthew 10:2, Mark 3:14-16, Luke 6:13-14). On various occasions Peter speaks in the name of the other Apostles (Matthew 15:15; 19:27; Luke 12:41, etc.). When Christ's words are addressed to all the Apostles, Peter answers in their name (e.g., Matthew 16:16). Frequently the Saviour turns specially to Peter (Matthew 26:40; Luke 22:31, etc.).
Very characteristic is the expression of true fidelity to Jesus, which Peter addressed to Him in the name of the other Apostles. Christ, after He had spoken of the mystery of the reception of His Body and Blood (John 6:22 sqq.) and many of His disciples had left Him, asked the Twelve if they too should leave Him; Peter's answer comes immediately: "Lord to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Holy One of God" (Vulgate "thou art the Christ, the Son of God"). Christ Himself unmistakably accords Peter a special precedence and the first place among the Apostles, and designates him for such on various occasions. Peter was one of the three Apostles (with James and John) who were with Christ on certain special occasions the raising of the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Mark 5:37; Luke 8:51); the Transfiguration of Christ (Matthew 17:1; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:28), the Agony in the Garden of Gethsemani (Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33). On several occasions also Christ favoured him above all the others; He enters Peter's boat on Lake Genesareth to preach to the multitude on the shore (Luke 5:3); when He was miraculously walking upon the waters, He called Peter to come to Him across the lake (Matthew 14:28 sqq.); He sent him to the lake to catch the fish in whose mouth Peter found the stater to pay as tribute (Matthew 17:24 sqq.).
Peter becomes head of the apostles
In especially solemn fashion Christ accentuated Peter's precedence among the Apostles, when, after Peter had recognized Him as the Messias, He promised that he would be head of His flock. Jesus was then dwelling with His Apostles in the vicinity of Caesarea Philippi, engaged on His work of salvation. As Christ's coming agreed so little in power and glory with the expectations of the Messias, many different views concerning Him were current. While journeying along with His Apostles, Jesus asks them: "Whom do men say that the Son of man is?" The Apostles answered: "Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets". Jesus said to them: "But whom do you say that I am?" Simon said: "Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God". And Jesus answering said to him: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church [ekklesian], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven". Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ (Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-21).
By the word "rock" the Saviour cannot have meant Himself, but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for "Peter" and "rock". His statement then admits of but one explanation, namely, that He wishes to make Peter the head of the whole community of those who believed in Him as the true Messias; that through this foundation (Peter) the Kingdom of Christ would be unconquerable; that the spiritual guidance of the faithful was placed in the hands of Peter, as the special representative of Christ. This meaning becomes so much the clearer when we remember that the words "bind" and "loose" are not metaphorical, but Jewish juridical terms. It is also clear that the position of Peter among the other Apostles and in the Christian community was the basis for the Kingdom of God on earth, that is, the Church of Christ. Peter was personally installed as Head of the Apostles by Christ Himself. This foundation created for the Church by its Founder could not disappear with the person of Peter, but was intended to continue and did continue (as actual history shows) in the primacy of the Roman Church and its bishops.
Show me one verse that says any of the apostles viewed him as the head guy.
Sure, as soon as you show me the verse listing all the books that ought to be included in the Scriptural canon
Seriously though, I just showed you a bunch of verses where Jesus viewed him as "the head guy".
You pasted a couple paragraphs that you copied from a website speculating that Peter had taken on a leadership role. None of the verses that you referenced said anything about that. Now, despite your attempt to change the subject, this is on you to back up the claim you made. Either you have evidence for your outlandish claim that Peter is the first pope, or you don't. Which is it?
You pasted a couple paragraphs that you copied from a website speculating that Peter had taken on a leadership role. None of the verses that you referenced said anything about that. Now, despite your attempt to change the subject, this is on you to back up the claim you made. Either you have evidence for your outlandish claim that Peter is the first pope, or you don't. Which is it?
You didn't ask about Peter being the "first pope". You asked for evidence for
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
...any bishop being elevated above any else.
Those couple paragraphs I quoted provide more than enough Biblical evidence to support the claim that Peter held a unique place as "chief" of the Apostles.
If you're asking about Peter's bishopric in Rome, that's a separate issue from him merely being elevated above the other Apostles.
You didn't ask about Peter being the "first pope". You asked for evidence for
Those couple paragraphs I quoted provide more than enough Biblical evidence to support the claim that Peter held a unique place as "chief" of the Apostles.
If you're asking about Peter's bishopric in Rome, that's a separate issue from him merely being elevated above the other Apostles.
Yes. I did ask that, specifically. And no, you have not shown any Bible verse that supports your claim that any bishop was superior to anyone else.
Read the Bible. We see the apostles writing letters. They don't claim to be bishops. They are instructing guys like Timothy and Titus to appoint elders. There really isn't much to be said of a hierarchy of bishops.
Yes. I did ask that, specifically. And no, you have not shown any Bible verse that supports your claim that any bishop was superior to anyone else.
Do you deny that Peter held an elevated place above the other Apostles?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Read the Bible. We see the apostles writing letters. They don't claim to be bishops. They are instructing guys like Timothy and Titus to appoint elders. There really isn't much to be said of a hierarchy of bishops.
But we have plenty of historical documents that testify that they were bishops. Timothy was the first bishop of Ephesus, for example.
Do you just disbelieve the history?
As I've been trying to explain, Scripture does not contain every teaching, belief, and historical event in history.
This ongoing discord between a Catholic fundamentalist and a Baptist Fundamentalist reveals the utter folly of believing in the apostolic succession of ANY kind. We are too fallible and flawed as humans ever to possess the kind of authority such nonsense purports. We ALL have the Comforter within us and we need to learn to listen and trust what He guides us to in our hearts because that is where God has written His Truth with agape love. We just need to be in the states of mind associated with agape love to see and understand Him. To refresh your minds, here is what Jesus showed us those states of mind are:
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
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