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On the other hand, if we just believe that there is power in the elements itself, and that it has less to do with the heart of the person partaking, we can see that it would cause one to tend to simply do it in a rote, ritualistic way.
There is power in the elements themselves - power to bring about life or death as Paul warns in 1 Corinthians 11. The state of the heart of the one partaking is of utmost importance! The two are not in opposition.
Anything can be done in a rote, ritualistic way. That in and of itself has no bearing on the validity or inherent appropriateness/inappropriateness of said thing.
This is a nonanswer from you. You are not addressing what I said. Why tell me to read it better when I am giving you the biblical facts that disciples left Jesus over his words? Why not address that, or address Ignatius, instead of just proclaiming I am reading it wrong? The Bible says the disciples that left understood it this way. Why did the disciples leave grumbling that it was impossible to eat Jesus’s flesh? Why did the disciple of the writer of John believe it became Jesus’s flesh, which he clearly states it does?
You might try addressing the actual points I made. I’m not offering my opinion on what the verses mean, I am giving examples of how the people of Jesus' day took his words to be literal because they heard him say it himself, or they learned it from an Apostle.
The apostles were carnal natural men, Nate, not spiritual at all. They could not grasp the spiritual reality of it so they just had to suck it up and accept what Jesus said as fact because He was clearly the Son of God. Those who left were too carnal-minded to do that and Jesus knew it. Not everyone is ready to accept spiritual reality even today.
You have focused on the central issue, BapFun. IT IS about what the individual receiving the communion evokes within their consciousness that matters and is the actual purpose of the remembrance. But it's also a spiritual reality NOT merely a symbolic remembrance.
Unfortunately, a carnal mind simply cannot wrap itself around the spiritual reality of the transubstantiation any easier than it can comprehend the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I'm constantly amazed at the manner in which you so completely and rudely disregard anything that anyone says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I just complimented you for recognizing the real issue about communion and you insist on seeing rudeness and disregard in it. Your prejudice against me is beyond the pale, BapFun. Get some help.
Yeah, that exchange had me scratching my head. First that you gave BF props, lol, and secondly that he took what you said as an insult when it was the opposite.
Yeah, that exchange had me scratching my head. First that you gave BF props, lol, and secondly that he took what you said as an insult when it was the opposite.
Yeah, that exchange had me scratching my head. First that you gave BF props, lol, and secondly that he took what you said as an insult when it was the opposite.
Ah, R&S.
I'm sorry I just saw the "carnal mind" blather and couldn't help myself. It's what he does. Repeatedly. Nonstop. If not insulting me, it's someone else.
There is power in the elements themselves - power to bring about life or death as Paul warns in 1 Corinthians 11. The state of the heart of the one partaking is of utmost importance! The two are not in opposition.
Anything can be done in a rote, ritualistic way. That in and of itself has no bearing on the validity or inherent appropriateness/inappropriateness of said thing.
I'm sorry I just saw the "carnal mind" blather and couldn't help myself. It's what he does. Repeatedly. Nonstop. If not insulting me, it's someone else.
I'm sorry I just saw the "carnal mind" blather and couldn't help myself. It's what he does. Repeatedly. Nonstop. If not insulting me, it's someone else.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
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