Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And so do you. There is nothing in the Scriptures that tells you which books are inspired, and which are not. Catholics and Orthodox at least can say that we know the list of inspired books because we rely on unwritten apostolic tradition. However, since you reject that tradition, how do you know which books constitute scripture? It is sheer hypocrisy to say that you believe only those things that are in the Bible, when the Bible itself is never mentioned in the Bible, and the scriptures do not provide any list of the books that should be included as "the scriptures".
You can parrot 2 Timothy 3 until you are blue in the face, but WHY do you say that 2 Timothy is inspired scripture at all? Paul never said it was, and he clearly indicates that the scripture Timothy was to read had been written years before. Why do you pick and choose to regard 2 Timothy as scripture, but not (for example) Wisdom, or 1 Maccabees? Admit it -- you are basing your beliefs regarding which books should be regarded as scripture not on anything in scripture itself, but on what you have picked and chosen to regard as scripture.
And so do you. There is nothing in the Scriptures that tells you which books are inspired, and which are not. Catholics and Orthodox at least can say that we know the list of inspired books because we rely on unwritten apostolic tradition. However, since you reject that tradition, how do you know which books constitute scripture? It is sheer hypocrisy to say that you believe only those things that are in the Bible, when the Bible itself is never mentioned in the Bible, and the scriptures do not provide any list of the books that should be included as "the scriptures".
You can parrot 2 Timothy 3 until you are blue in the face, but WHY do you say that 2 Timothy is inspired scripture at all? Paul never said it was, and he clearly indicates that the scripture Timothy was to read had been written years before. Why do you pick and choose to regard 2 Timothy as scripture, but not (for example) Wisdom, or 1 Maccabees? Admit it -- you are basing your beliefs regarding which books should be regarded as scripture not on anything in scripture itself, but on what you have picked and chosen to regard as scripture.
And so do you. There is nothing in the Scriptures that tells you which books are inspired, and which are not. Catholics and Orthodox at least can say that we know the list of inspired books because we rely on unwritten apostolic tradition. However, since you reject that tradition, how do you know which books constitute scripture? It is sheer hypocrisy to say that you believe only those things that are in the Bible, when the Bible itself is never mentioned in the Bible, and the scriptures do not provide any list of the books that should be included as "the scriptures".
You can parrot 2 Timothy 3 until you are blue in the face, but WHY do you say that 2 Timothy is inspired scripture at all? Paul never said it was, and he clearly indicates that the scripture Timothy was to read had been written years before. Why do you pick and choose to regard 2 Timothy as scripture, but not (for example) Wisdom, or 1 Maccabees? Admit it -- you are basing your beliefs regarding which books should be regarded as scripture not on anything in scripture itself, but on what you have picked and chosen to regard as scripture.
Exactly. At the time Paul writes what later becomes 2 Timothy 3:16, the gospels are not yet written and neither are other epistles. So what Scripture is he talking about exactly? Who got to decide that it meant what would be established by men as the canon several hundred years later?
Exactly. At the time Paul writes what later becomes 2 Timothy 3:16, the gospels are not yet written and neither are other epistles. So what Scripture is he talking about exactly? Who got to decide that it meant what would be established by men as the canon several hundred years later?
I just came to understand something about my own denomination's beliefs concerning the Lord's Supper that never really occurred to me before. It was solely because of this thread that this realization hit me. Anyway, I had previously stated that in my church, we receive the emblems of Christ's sacrifice "in remembrance of what He did for us." The posters here who believe in Transubstantiation have made a point of saying that the bread and wine actually change and become a different substance than they started out. So today, when I went to church, I listened carefully to the prayers that were offered over the bread and water (we use water instead of wine, but that's the subject for another thread). These two prayers are among the very few in my church that are always said verbatim. Here's how they go:
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
As I paid more careful attention to the words, it dawned on me that we evidently do believe that something happens to the bread and water. They are "sanctified," i.e., made holy or sacred. In other words, they are not "just bread and water" but "holy bread and water." That's definitely not saying that we believe in Transubstantiation, but I'd never given much thought to the fact that we believe them to undergo a change of some sort.
I just came to understand something about my own denomination's beliefs concerning the Lord's Supper that never really occurred to me before. It was solely because of this thread that this realization hit me. Anyway, I had previously stated that in my church, we receive the emblems of Christ's sacrifice "in remembrance of what He did for us." The posters here who believe in Transubstantiation have made a point of saying that the bread and wine actually change and become a different substance than they started out. So today, when I went to church, I listened carefully to the prayers that were offered over the bread and water (we use water instead of wine, but that's the subject for another thread). These two prayers are among the very few in my church that are always said verbatim. Here's how they go:
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
As I paid more careful attention to the words, it dawned on me that we evidently do believe that something happens to the bread and water. They are "sanctified," i.e., made holy or sacred. In other words, they are not "just bread and water" but "holy bread and water." That's definitely not saying that we believe in Transubstantiation, but I'd never given much thought to the fact that we believe them to undergo a change of some sort.
Our automatic interpretation is carnal or worldly despite the specific instruction to read and interpret the scriptures spiritually.
I just came to understand something about my own denomination's beliefs concerning the Lord's Supper that never really occurred to me before. It was solely because of this thread that this realization hit me. Anyway, I had previously stated that in my church, we receive the emblems of Christ's sacrifice "in remembrance of what He did for us." The posters here who believe in Transubstantiation have made a point of saying that the bread and wine actually change and become a different substance than they started out. So today, when I went to church, I listened carefully to the prayers that were offered over the bread and water (we use water instead of wine, but that's the subject for another thread). These two prayers are among the very few in my church that are always said verbatim. Here's how they go:
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
As I paid more careful attention to the words, it dawned on me that we evidently do believe that something happens to the bread and water. They are "sanctified," i.e., made holy or sacred. In other words, they are not "just bread and water" but "holy bread and water." That's definitely not saying that we believe in Transubstantiation, but I'd never given much thought to the fact that we believe them to undergo a change of some sort.
There are four commonly used Eucharistic Prayers in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. (The Eastern Rites have their own liturgies.) The words of consecration found in each are presented below:
From Eucharistic Prayer I (the "Roman Canon"):
Be pleased, O God, we pray, to bless, acknowledge, and approve this offering in every respect; make it spiritual and acceptable, so that it may become for us the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
On the day before he was to suffer he took bread in his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes raised to heaven to you, O God, his almighty Father, giving you thanks he said the blessing, broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took this precious chalice in his holy and venerable hands, and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT, WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
From Eucharistic Prayer II:
Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body + and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Note: the symbol + means the priest here makes the sign of the cross over the elements.)
At the time he was betrayed and entered willingly into his Passion, he took bread and, giving thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice and, once more giving thanks, he gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT, WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
From Eucharistic Prayer III:
Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you: by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought to you for consecration, that they may become the Body and + Blood of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ at whose command we celebrate these mysteries.
For on the night he was betrayed he himself took bread, and giving you thanks he said the blessing, broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice, and giving you thanks he said the blessing, and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT; WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
From Eucharistic Prayer IV:
Therefore, O Lord, we pray: may this same Holy Spirit graciously sanctify these offerings, that they may become the Body + and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for the celebration of this great mystery, which he himself left us as an eternal covenant.
For when the hour had come for him to be glorified by you, Father most holy, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end: and while they were at supper, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying,
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, taking the chalice filled with the fruit of the vine, he gave thanks, and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT; WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
The Catholic 'Liturgy of the Eucharist' actually has several parts - I'll quote the middle 3 parts here, for brevity:
Quote:
Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you: by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought to you for consecration,
that they may become the Body and + Blood of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ at whose command we celebrate these mysteries.
Quote:
For on the night he was betrayed he himself took bread, and giving you thanks he said the blessing, broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice, and giving you thanks he said the blessing, and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT;
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
Quote:
Therefore, O Lord, we celebrate the memorial of the saving Passion of your Son, his wondrous Resurrection and Ascension into heaven,
and as we look forward to his second coming, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
This is taken from 'Eucharist Prayer #3 (EPIII)' as there are slightly different versions depending on Liturgical season.
This link has all 4 versions, plus all the parts as well - https://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/RM3-EP1-4.htm
For the The Tridentine Mass (Traditional Latin Mass) of course the words would be in Latin and worded a bit differently.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
