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I did see this dynamic a bit during my brief time as a bemused observer of Charismatic Christians. It is entirely possible for dysfunctional people to use the gifts as a sort of "holy gaslighting" to manipulate or to harm others, and/or for self-aggrandizement.
ALL "holiness" churches believe that by taking part in certain activities - prayer, church attendance, fasting, etc. and avoiding other activities - dancing, gambling, drinking, movies and other actives, one can become more Godlike, with extremists believing that they can become "demi-Gods".
The idea that one can become God like or even God, brings out the narcissism in most people. Additionally, people attracted to these religions have certain personality traits.
In my experience, they are less than successful in the Real World - which they pretend to "look down upon" and join these types of churches - where they can be thought of as geniuses in for graduating from schools like Oral Roberts University or Evangel College and God like for speaking in tongues and having 12 children.
Theologians as mainstream as John Wesley, founder of the Methodist church, have "Holiness" beliefs. Wesley stated that people could become close to Gods by certain activities I would define as "works".
And YES - "Holy Gas Lighting" is rampant in those churches, as it "self-aggrandizement".
Now that I think of it, the woman who announced her "word of knowledge" publicly in the car that night, was a jealous person who was worried that I was becoming friends with a woman in that church who she wanted to be "besties" with. She rented her house, I owned. She was obese, I was not. I had a well-paying part time job, she had none. Yet, she constantly criticized black people for being on welfare. Funny thing, her parents paid her rent, and her husband was on disability for his "bad back" - yet he had a "business" building decks for church members who wanted to help them out.
BUT - she had FOUR kids going on FIVE, and I had one.
Jesus recognized their torrid state of legalism, and put them in their place. Law above love. Judgement over understanding and forgiveness. And they in turn hated him for that.
There's no adoration from Jesus from them. They were 180 degrees opposite his message. The ways of the old and new were now firmly clear.
Very good observation Jesus once used the term "hypocrite" in the same paragraph as the Pharisees. Yet in my experience, the fundy churches I attended when younger were poster children of hypocrisy. It would seem that to follow Jesus, one must strive NOT to be a hypocrite, but yet I was surrounded by hypocrites on all sides and levels. And none of them cared.
Which made me not want anything to do with any of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins
Church dogma is often simply foolishness in terms of rules and hierarchy and prohibited activities. It seems to have nothing to do with Christ's teachings. It is based on tradition and often invoked in political (in every sense) ways. I tolerate it or ignore some of the most ridiculous examples. My problem is most often members of the congregation who are particularly judgmental or have some notion that they speak for the church. This runs like a spectrum through the church from fashion police to shaming children with single parents.
I pointed out that the reason I say that there is no such thing as "spiritual authority" is that no one has nay legal right to dictate their religious or spiritual ideas onto anyone else. I personally will not be subject to what someone else thinks are "god's rules"
Now I know that some people do. Some people go through life and allow someone in a church or other religious institution to tell them how they must live their lives. And some of those people, I know firsthand, are miserable as a result but carry on anyway because, after all, it is "god's rules."
To me, no church member, or leader has any authority over my life. Opinions, suggestions, yes, but authority...no.
Lets look at a few quick examples that I have mentioned before Our pastor (in the church where I grew up) telling the congregation not to watch the Academy Awards because he saw the Movie industry as sinful*. Of course, I did anyway, causing great tension and distress between my mother and myself, because she believed that his rules were to be followed, and I did not recognize his authority any more than China recognizes Taiwan.
Hearing one total loser Christian (DOC) minister tell me that people should not eat Chinese food because the Chinese government embraces atheism therefore eating Chinese food was in effect glorifying communism and therefore Satanism. That is his opinion but again, I will not allow his "opinion" to dictate my lifestyle choices. He has no authority.
Being told by a church of Christ member (who claimed to be a deacon or elder or some crap) that I cannot attend a Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve because the church of Christ does not celebrate Christmas as such. Again it is fine for a person to choose how he or she individually worships but never for another person to try to control how someone else worships. In Iran, or China, perhaps, but not in this country.
And so on......
It is fine, encouraged and even right for a person to worship and believe as he or she wants, so long as they do not interfere with the lives or rights of others I encourage discourse, I am interested in what people believe and why. I simply do not tolerate others trying to force what they believe, or how they live, onto me.
* I also do not recognize or believe in the concept of sin. But that is for another thread some other time
How did the nature of Authority change after the cross?
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
Kingdom of Heaven.
A Kingdom has a King. Kings have authority. Kings also delegate their authority and endow others with it by appointing regents and other deputies and representatives.
A Kingdom has a King. Kings have authority. Kings also delegate their authority and endow others with it by appointing regents and other deputies and representatives.
It's not the kind of Kingdom you've ever seen before. You are basing all of this on man's way.
It's not the kind of Kingdom [you're assuming] You are basing all of this on man's way.
Great point. Mikey wants to take the perfected spiritual kingdom and setup, and lower it to man's level, complete with flawed jokers in robes and bogus positions of hierarchy. What an insult to God to replace his ways with man's lost and duped ways. We only need God to depend on; not men in buildings (men just as full of sin as everyone else).
Nowhere in the Bible does God or Jesus say to trust in man / men / mankind / humans.
Great point. Mikey wants to take the perfected spiritual kingdom and setup, and lower it to man's level, complete with flawed jokers in robes and bogus positions of hierarchy. What an insult to God to replace his ways with man's lost and duped ways. We only need God to depend on; not men in buildings (men just as full of sin as everyone else).
What God created, as detailed in the Bible (go and read it directly; I can't top or surpass what the scriptures say).
The kingdom is not what man has created through false religiosity.
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- yet he had a "business" building decks for church members who wanted to help them out. 
Great point. Mikey wants to take the perfected spiritual kingdom and setup, and lower it to man's level, complete with flawed jokers in robes and bogus positions of hierarchy. What an insult to God to replace his ways with man's lost and duped ways. We only need God to depend on; not men in buildings (men just as full of sin as everyone else).
