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Nobody said that God smiles at sin, so I am not sure why that even entered your mind. Of course we should all want to avoid sin, but you seem to think no one should think of anything else. If we all thought of nothing ever besides our faults, what a depressing life that would be!
You obviously either have a reading comprehension issue, or you willingly choose to ignore a huge portion of my posting. Because almost every time I comment on sin, I also comment on the goodness of God, in that Jesus saves.
Yet, you zero in on the fact that I say we need a savior. As if recognizing the need for him is somehow a terrible thing. Honestly, I doubt you'd be willing to accept Jesus or any of the apostles into your fellowship, because they all said the same things.
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I don't know what you mean. There's no misuse. Francis said demonstrating a Christlike life is more effective than simply preaching about it. You seriously did not understand that?
So you don't believe he'd tell us to avoid sin? How about the words of his you quoted? Did you get those by simply observing his life?
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Well, be honest. You don't come off as much of a smiler, BF. I don't think Jesus was as sour as you seem to want to depict him, and it's easy to picture you scowling at a laughing Jesus. Perhaps the problem is that we all just like to imagine Christ in our own image!
And you'd likely say the same of Jesus, based on my observations of you. How DARE he confront those Pharisees! How DARE he point out to the Samaritan woman she'd had several husbands before?
I get it. You're likely a very nice person off-line. But on this forum, you come across as mean to those that you disagree with.
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ETA: I concede that we can't know what people are like outside these message boards, so for all I know, BF, in Real Life you might actually be a nice, friendly guy and the negative persona you cultivate in this space is just an alter-ego you present for your own entertainment. Only God knows for sure.
And I agree. I may come across as a bit harsh in some cases because we have such a wide range of folks that post nonsense here. People don't like being told they're wrong. Even when we actually back up our answers by Scripture.
You obviously either have a reading comprehension issue, or you willingly choose to ignore a huge portion of my posting. Because almost every time I comment on sin, I also comment on the goodness of God, in that Jesus saves.
Yet, you zero in on the fact that I say we need a savior. As if recognizing the need for him is somehow a terrible thing. Honestly, I doubt you'd be willing to accept Jesus or any of the apostles into your fellowship, because they all said the same things.
So you don't believe he'd tell us to avoid sin? How about the words of his you quoted? Did you get those by simply observing his life?
And you'd likely say the same of Jesus, based on my observations of you. How DARE he confront those Pharisees! How DARE he point out to the Samaritan woman she'd had several husbands before?
The fact that you see these interactions as being in the same category is puzzling. Jesus pointed out the sins of the woman at the well because they were hurting her, and he let her know there was another way. I don't see Jesus scowling and shoving his finger in her face in that story at all.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees because their words and actions were hurtful to others. They thought they were doing the right thing, because they were following the rules even though they were hurting others by doing so. He tried to make them, and those who witnessed his interactions with them, see things in a different light.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I get it. You're likely a very nice person off-line. But on this forum, you come across as mean to those that you disagree with.
And I agree. I may come across as a bit harsh in some cases because we have such a wide range of folks that post nonsense here. People don't like being told they're wrong. Even when we actually back up our answers by Scripture.
Maybe because pointing out people's sins to them is not what a Christian's first move should be.
As for the Scripture, take a lesson from it in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Remember that the Levite and the Priest thought they were doing the right thing by folllowing the letter of the written law, and in doing so, they put their compassion for their neighbor aside.
And, sidebar, I've said time and again on this forum that one of the reasons i went to church is because I'm NOT a nice person by nature. Oh, people think I am. I have a lot of friends, and I think I know more people, either professionally or socially, than most people do. Someone once said I could get along with a cockroach.
But it doesn't come naturally. I went to hear "love your neighbor" every week because I needed the reminder!
The fact that you see these interactions as being in the same category is puzzling. Jesus pointed out the sins of the woman at the well because they were hurting her, and he let her know there was another way. I don't see Jesus scowling and shoving his finger in her face in that story at all.
And the fact that you DO see me as scowling and shoving my fingers in anyone's face is you reading into the post what isn't there. You completely ignore the part where I point out that God loves his people so much he died for them.
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Jesus confronted the Pharisees because their words and actions were hurtful to others. They thought they were doing the right thing, because they were following the rules even though they were hurting others by doing so. He tried to make them, and those who witnessed his interactions with them, see things in a different light.
And I'm sure you see your confrontation of others as righteous, as well, don't you?
No one is pointing fingers at anyone and scowling. But unless one realizes one's own sin, one doesn't recognize the need for a savior.
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Maybe because pointing out people's sins to them is not what a Christian's first move should be.
Which is why I say I doubt you'd welcome any of the apostles with open arms.
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As for the Scripture, take a lesson from it in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Remember that the Levite and the Priest thought they were doing the right thing by folllowing the letter of the written law, and in doing so, they put their compassion for their neighbor aside.
You mean how you'd likely step over to the other side to avoid talking to a "Fundie"? You're the only one here pointing fingers at people. It's not me. Nowhere have I condemned anyone.
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And, sidebar, I've said time and again on this forum that one of the reasons i went to church is because I'm NOT a nice person by nature. Oh, people think I am. I have a lot of friends, and I think I know more people, either professionally or socially, than most people do. Someone once said I could get along with a cockroach.
But it doesn't come naturally. I went to hear "love your neighbor" every week because I needed the reminder!
I'm just saying maybe stop reading into others' posts what isn't there. Show that love. I'm not the one calling people sinners beyond saving.
The fact that you see these interactions as being in the same category is puzzling. Jesus pointed out the sins of the woman at the well because they were hurting her, and he let her know there was another way. I don't see Jesus scowling and shoving his finger in her face in that story at all.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees because their words and actions were hurtful to others. They thought they were doing the right thing, because they were following the rules even though they were hurting others by doing so. He tried to make them, and those who witnessed his interactions with them, see things in a different light.
Maybe because pointing out people's sins to them is not what a Christian's first move should be.
As for the Scripture, take a lesson from it in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Remember that the Levite and the Priest thought they were doing the right thing by folllowing the letter of the written law, and in doing so, they put their compassion for their neighbor aside.
And, sidebar, I've said time and again on this forum that one of the reasons i went to church is because I'm NOT a nice person by nature. Oh, people think I am. I have a lot of friends, and I think I know more people, either professionally or socially, than most people do. Someone once said I could get along with a cockroach.
But it doesn't come naturally. I went to hear "love your neighbor" every week because I needed the reminder!
Decades ago, after I completed my military service, my ex-wife joined a small militant church named Maranatha Ministries which catered to USC and UCLA students. The number of married couples was miniscule. Everyone else was a student.
Church life was bliss for the first 2 years. It was precisely at the 2-year mark when I began questioning that church's practices and culture. At the time, I worked an unskilled job while waiting acceptance into a trade school. My ex-wife got pregnant shortly thereafter.
At a prayer meeting, the co-pastor raised a glossy new magazine before our small congregation and declared that purchase of the new $50/month church magazine wasn't optional as it was a way to raise funds for the church. At the time, I was a man with a meager salary expecting the arrival of our first child. I carefully voiced concern over the magazine's price. I was again informed that purchasing the magazine was non-optional. I said the following to the co-pastor, "I will pray to God and let you know what He says regarding the purchase of the magazine. " The following day I notified the co-pastor that I would not be buying the magazine after "hearing God's voice."
I graduated trade school which immediately resulted in a better income. My job entailed weekly rotating shifts which left me with little time outside of family, work, and rest. One day during a church service, the senior pastor gave everyone a mandate to bring one new soul to church by x-number of days, no exceptions! I was a working man with a family. I had no time to go out recruiting souls. Because I did not want to appear as a contrarian or rebel, I asked a neighbor if I could bring his 13-year-old son to church with me. He agreed. After church the senior pastor asked if I had brought my "new soul." When I pointed at my neighbor's son the pastor immediately asked, "Couldn't you bring someone older?" Someone older? What did age have to do with saving souls? He was looking for an adult with a wallet. From the senior pastor's mouth, I heard the words, "You need to consider attending another church." My response? "Pastor, I will pray to God and will let you know exactly what He says." The next day I informed the senior pastor that God wanted me to stay put right in his congregation.
Although it was disingenuous of me, I used the "I'll pray to God" line in retaliation against those who sought to remove me. By this time, I was only going to church because it made my ex-wife happy. As long as she was happy, little else mattered to me. I would have stayed in that church indefinitely if it continued making my loving ex-wife happy.
Sometime during our 9th year of attendance at this church, my ex-wife innocently shared that I sometimes had a glass of wine with dinner. By the time my ex-wife's statement reached the senior pastor's ears, I had an alcohol problem, and with that, the story repeated itself once again:
"I need to speak to you about your problem with alcohol."
"Pastor, I do not have a problem with alcohol. I have an occasional glass of wine at home with dinner."
"We do not tolerate alcohol consumption in this church. Maybe it's time you moved on."
This was our 9th year at this church, and by now I had been asked to leave 3 times. I spoke to my ex-wife. Knowing how attached she was to the church I expected resistance. Nope! She knew the details behind each time I'd been asked to leave. And with that, my lovely ex-wife looked at me and said, "it's time for us to move on." And we did.
And the fact that you DO see me as scowling and shoving my fingers in anyone's face is you reading into the post what isn't there. You completely ignore the part where I point out that God loves his people so much he died for them.
And I'm sure you see your confrontation of others as righteous, as well, don't you?
No one is pointing fingers at anyone and scowling. But unless one realizes one's own sin, one doesn't recognize the need for a savior.
Which is why I say I doubt you'd welcome any of the apostles with open arms.
You mean how you'd likely step over to the other side to avoid talking to a "Fundie"? You're the only one here pointing fingers at people. It's not me. Nowhere have I condemned anyone.
I'm just saying maybe stop reading into others' posts what isn't there. Show that love. I'm not the one calling people sinners beyond saving.
Do you really think that's what the apostles did? Ran around telling everyone they were sinners? Or did they maybe draw people in with the way they lived in closeness to God so that people came to recognize their own sinful natures without someone pointing it out to them?
I have a few Fundie friends. Childhood, long-time friends. One even credits ME with planting the seeds in her about reading what the Bible says back when we were teenagers. Imagine that. She was raised a Catholic and did not learn much about the Bible as a kid. I would never avoid her, but when she sent me an email in 2016 that "explained" why a vote for one of the presidential candidates was a vote for God and the other a vote for Satan, I did not respond. One of the problems I have with fundamentalist thought is the black/white, good/evil, right/wrong stark lines drawn between everything. Jesus did the exact opposite--blurred those lines and opened a doorway between them. I did not argue with her. I trust that God will teach people though Life that everything does not fall into one or another of those extremes.
So, no, of course I would not step away from a fundamentalist, but I have a difficult time discussing anything of depth about Christianity with them. To me, fundamentalists seem "stuck", for lack of a better term. Like an engineer who knows everything in the textbook but has never been on a construction site and seen how things actually play out in reality. One only progresses by taking a leap outside the comfortable, closing the book for a while, as it were, and going out to see what it's like outside.
No, I don't think I see my confrontations as righteous, because I'm pretty far from righteous, especially these days when my own faith has been ground up and stomped on.
It still all comes down to what started this whole conversation between you and me. The OP asked if people's churches have made them feel unwelcome or otherwise hurt them, and your first response--without hearing even one single personal account in response to that question--was that if they did, it MUST be because they didn't want to be told they were doing something wrong. That is not true, and yet it was the first thing that came to your mind.
That way of thinking is a problem. I was just trying to help you see that, because on a message board, it's one thing, but if a person comes to you, a Christian, for compassion and help, yea though they are a sinner because all of us are, if the FIRST THING you point out is "this is happening because you are a sinner", you could turn them away forever.
Do you really think that's what the apostles did? Ran around telling everyone they were sinners? Or did they maybe draw people in with the way they lived in closeness to God so that people came to recognize their own sinful natures without someone pointing it out to them?
I have a few Fundie friends. Childhood, long-time friends. One even credits ME with planting the seeds in her about reading what the Bible says back when we were teenagers. Imagine that. She was raised a Catholic and did not learn much about the Bible as a kid. I would never avoid her, but when she sent me an email in 2016 that "explained" why a vote for one of the presidential candidates was a vote for God and the other a vote for Satan, I did not respond. One of the problems I have with fundamentalist thought is the black/white, good/evil, right/wrong stark lines drawn between everything. Jesus did the exact opposite--blurred those lines and opened a doorway between them. I did not argue with her. I trust that God will teach people though Life that everything does not fall into one or another of those extremes.
So, no, of course I would not step away from a fundamentalist, but I have a difficult time discussing anything of depth about Christianity with them. To me, fundamentalists seem "stuck", for lack of a better term. Like an engineer who knows everything in the textbook but has never been on a construction site and seen how things actually play out in reality. One only progresses by taking a leap outside the comfortable, closing the book for a while, as it were, and going out to see what it's like outside.
No, I don't think I see my confrontations as righteous, because I'm pretty far from righteous, especially these days when my own faith has been ground up and stomped on.
It still all comes down to what started this whole conversation between you and me. The OP asked if people's churches have made them feel unwelcome or otherwise hurt them, and your first response--without hearing even one single personal account in response to that question--was that if they did, it MUST be because they didn't want to be told they were doing something wrong. That is not true, and yet it was the first thing that came to your mind.
That way of thinking is a problem. I was just trying to help you see that, because on a message board, it's one thing, but if a person comes to you, a Christian, for compassion and help, yea though they are a sinner because all of us are, if the FIRST THING you point out is "this is happening because you are a sinner", you could turn them away forever.
Here’s what Peter said, recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Good answer, jimmie, good answer. Excellent verse choice. I'm not kidding.
There's more I could say, but it can wait. For now, to you and BaptistFundie and all the others here who revere the birth of Christ, have a very Merry Christmas.
Decades ago, after I completed my military service, my ex-wife joined a small militant church named Maranatha Ministries which catered to USC and UCLA students. The number of married couples was miniscule. Everyone else was a student.
I said the following to the co-pastor, "I will pray to God and let you know what He says regarding the purchase of the magazine. " The following day I notified the co-pastor that I would not be buying the magazine after "hearing God's voice."
From the senior pastor's mouth, I heard the words, "You need to consider attending another church." My response? "Pastor, I will pray to God and will let you know exactly what He says." The next day I informed the senior pastor that God wanted me to stay put right in his congregation.
Although it was disingenuous of me, I used the "I'll pray to God" line in retaliation against those who sought to remove me. By this time, I was only going to church because it made my ex-wife happy. As long as she was happy, little else mattered to me. I would have stayed in that church indefinitely if it continued making my loving ex-wife happy.
"I need to speak to you about your problem with alcohol."
"Pastor, I do not have a problem with alcohol. I have an occasional glass of wine at home with dinner."
"We do not tolerate alcohol consumption in this church. Maybe it's time you moved on."
This was our 9th year at this church, and by now I had been asked to leave 3 times. I spoke to my ex-wife. Knowing how attached she was to the church I expected resistance. Nope! She knew the details behind each time I'd been asked to leave. And with that, my lovely ex-wife looked at me and said, "it's time for us to move on." And we did.
I like that response. Many Christians use the phrase "it is what God wants Me/You to do" when in fact, it is only what "I /You" want to do
That is about one argument for which there is no response and you played it well.
I have thought about telling some of the people at the two churches here in town that I attend on occasion (I support their charities) About my fondness for weed as well as resuming my travel hobby, starting with Vegas in January.
Just to see the reaction, but honestly, I don't care.
I have had more bad experiences than good with religions, and I am not going to provoke any more.
Decades ago, after I completed my military service, my ex-wife joined a small militant church named Maranatha Ministries which catered to USC and UCLA students. The number of married couples was miniscule. Everyone else was a student.
Church life was bliss for the first 2 years. It was precisely at the 2-year mark when I began questioning that church's practices and culture. At the time, I worked an unskilled job while waiting acceptance into a trade school. My ex-wife got pregnant shortly thereafter.
At a prayer meeting, the co-pastor raised a glossy new magazine before our small congregation and declared that purchase of the new $50/month church magazine wasn't optional as it was a way to raise funds for the church. At the time, I was a man with a meager salary expecting the arrival of our first child. I carefully voiced concern over the magazine's price. I was again informed that purchasing the magazine was non-optional. I said the following to the co-pastor, "I will pray to God and let you know what He says regarding the purchase of the magazine. " The following day I notified the co-pastor that I would not be buying the magazine after "hearing God's voice."
I graduated trade school which immediately resulted in a better income. My job entailed weekly rotating shifts which left me with little time outside of family, work, and rest. One day during a church service, the senior pastor gave everyone a mandate to bring one new soul to church by x-number of days, no exceptions! I was a working man with a family. I had no time to go out recruiting souls. Because I did not want to appear as a contrarian or rebel, I asked a neighbor if I could bring his 13-year-old son to church with me. He agreed. After church the senior pastor asked if I had brought my "new soul." When I pointed at my neighbor's son the pastor immediately asked, "Couldn't you bring someone older?" Someone older? What did age have to do with saving souls? He was looking for an adult with a wallet. From the senior pastor's mouth, I heard the words, "You need to consider attending another church." My response? "Pastor, I will pray to God and will let you know exactly what He says." The next day I informed the senior pastor that God wanted me to stay put right in his congregation.
Although it was disingenuous of me, I used the "I'll pray to God" line in retaliation against those who sought to remove me. By this time, I was only going to church because it made my ex-wife happy. As long as she was happy, little else mattered to me. I would have stayed in that church indefinitely if it continued making my loving ex-wife happy.
Sometime during our 9th year of attendance at this church, my ex-wife innocently shared that I sometimes had a glass of wine with dinner. By the time my ex-wife's statement reached the senior pastor's ears, I had an alcohol problem, and with that, the story repeated itself once again:
"I need to speak to you about your problem with alcohol."
"Pastor, I do not have a problem with alcohol. I have an occasional glass of wine at home with dinner."
"We do not tolerate alcohol consumption in this church. Maybe it's time you moved on."
This was our 9th year at this church, and by now I had been asked to leave 3 times. I spoke to my ex-wife. Knowing how attached she was to the church I expected resistance. Nope! She knew the details behind each time I'd been asked to leave. And with that, my lovely ex-wife looked at me and said, "it's time for us to move on." And we did.
I was wondering where this ^ was going. Then I came to the punch line.
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Perhaps the problem is that we all just like to imagine Christ in our own image!
