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It seems some just will not accept all the words of God . All I can add is the following scriptures :
Deut.4.2 " You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take away from it,...."
Proverbs 30.6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Rev. 22.18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19. and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.
Three times this warning is given. Three is a complete number in scriptures.
One interesting passage that showed up in my recent studies was Luke 13; Jesus is speaking in this passage about salvation and makes the statement in verse 24, "Be striving to go through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in and shall not able". This was after a man had asked Him whether or not many will be saved. I thought this passage was interesting and I would like to hear everyone's view on how this is to be interpreted.
Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, so HE paid the wages. This scripture goes back to the original sin of Adam and Eve. Because of that sin, the "curse" of it is bodily death.
And to address your question, this may also refer to the second death, which the Bible says all unbelievers will suffer. The second death, or spiritual death, is eternal damnation in hell.
If Jesus died for our sins, then why do we still have to endure "bodily" death? Just as CelticLady1 said, Adam wasn't told that just his body would die and he would go on and be tortured.
Remember, who told Adam and Eve they surely wouldn't die? Wasn't it Satan who led them to believe that they wouldn't die?
If Jesus died for our sins, then why do we still have to endure "bodily" death? Just as CelticLady1 said, Adam wasn't told that just his body would die and he would go on and be tortured.
Remember, who told Adam and Eve they surely wouldn't die? Wasn't it Satan who led them to believe that they wouldn't die?
True, Jesus died for our sins, but in order to benefit from that, we must obey Him, and remain faithful until death.
He died for our sins so that we could be saved, not so we will be saved.
Reread John 3.16 , and please note the word SHOULD !
One interesting passage that showed up in my recent studies was Luke 13; Jesus is speaking in this passage about salvation and makes the statement in verse 24, "Be striving to go through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in and shall not able". This was after a man had asked Him whether or not many will be saved. I thought this passage was interesting and I would like to hear everyone's view on how this is to be interpreted.
Many are seeking, but not truly striving. Counting the cost too great when they've found the gate... not able to bring their easy chair with them.
True, Jesus died for our sins, but in order to benefit from that, we must obey Him, and remain faithful until death.
He died for our sins so that we could be saved, not so we will be saved.
Reread John 3.16 , and please note the word SHOULD !
Don't get me wrong...I'm with you on the eternal life thing. I just don't think there is a holding place called "hell" of punishment and torture. When we die we go in the common grave, sheol/hades.
When those who are in the common grave are ressurected they are either ressurected to life (the believers) or judgement (those that did not believe who did not follow God's word). If they are ressurected to judgement they must then prove themselves, they are given another opportunity to change during the thousand years under heavenly rulership of Jesus (Rev 20) while Satan is bound and unable to influence humans. Satan is then let out after the thousand years and all those who choose to follow him (like Adam and Eve did) will be cut off eternally...the second death.
I'm hurrying through this because I have an appt to get to so I'll come back reread and clarify.
Don't get me wrong...I'm with you on the eternal life thing. I just don't think there is a holding place called "hell" of punishment and torture. When we die we go in the common grave, sheol/hades.
When those who are in the common grave are ressurected they are either ressurected to life (the believers) or judgement (those that did not believe who did not follow God's word). If they are ressurected to judgement they must then prove themselves, they are given another opportunity to change during the thousand years under heavenly rulership of Jesus (Rev 20) while Satan is bound and unable to influence humans. Satan is then let out after the thousand years and all those who choose to follow him (like Adam and Eve did) will be cut off eternally...the second death.
I'm hurrying through this because I have an appt to get to so I'll come back reread and clarify.
The body goes to the common grave, and returns to dust eventually. The spirit returns to God, as does the spirits of all creatures that die. The soul ( which only humans have) goes to Hades, to await the judgement day. There are more than one part of Hades. One part is for the unbelievers and the wicked. The other part is for the righteous. Perhaps each part is devided even more. God knows. The scriptures are not clear on that.
Don't get me wrong...I'm with you on the eternal life thing. I just don't think there is a holding place called "hell" of punishment and torture. When we die we go in the common grave, sheol/hades.
When those who are in the common grave are ressurected they are either ressurected to life (the believers) or judgement (those that did not believe who did not follow God's word). If they are ressurected to judgement they must then prove themselves, they are given another opportunity to change during the thousand years under heavenly rulership of Jesus (Rev 20) while Satan is bound and unable to influence humans. Satan is then let out after the thousand years and all those who choose to follow him (like Adam and Eve did) will be cut off eternally...the second death.
I'm hurrying through this because I have an appt to get to so I'll come back reread and clarify.
BV,
I need to point out something about what you said.
During the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the unbelieving dead remain dead. They do not get resurrected until the 1,000 years are over.
Then they are judged at the Great White Throne Judgement.
There are no second chances, my friend. The only chance we have to get it right is in this short, mortal life that we have right this minute. Our lives can end in the next click of the secondhand, and it's important that people know how they can avoid the eternal damnation of hell....NOW.
There is more urgency than usual to get right with the Father and accept Jesus Christ because we are living in the last days. But the urgency has always been there because we are not guaranteed one more second in this lifetime.
Eternal torment doctrine poses HUGE moral, ethical and philosophical dilemmas,
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
I believe this statement is the basis by which UR promoters start questioning Biblical scripture... correct?
I'm sure it is. Me personally not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
So, in short, what moral, ethical or philosophical dilemmas do you see?
As some have already stated in this thread - it basically turns God into the most horrific monster imaginable.
In Calvinism from beginning to end it's all to show how much He loves His elect and hates His non-elect.
In Arminianism He just gives all these inherently evil immortal beings what they really really want - to be evil and suffer for it forever (almost as crazy as Calvinism).
I think M. J. Steere states the moral/ethical case quite well:
"Certainly, rational and scriptural as your penal doctrine seems to you, to me it involves the most alarming absurdities. Some of these latter I will now consider; and First. Your faith implies that "God, the Father," casts vast multitudes of intelligent, immortal beings, in his own image, and places them in this world of trial, either foreordaining that he will, or foreknowing that he shall, damn them forever.
The Creator dwells in his own self-sufficiency. Of course, he is independent of everything outside of himself, and, therefore, can have no occasion, in creating, or in dealing with his creatures, to seek selfish ends; a thing, which is alike forbidden, by the revelation of his essential nature. "For God is Love." Now that such a God should interest himself in begetting immortal beings, "of his own will, and in his own image, to feel his wrath forever — to be forever dying, but never dead, — to have their capacity for suffering forever filling up, but never full, does seem to me absurd in the extreme.
For, mark, no matter how long the creature's probation may be, ten minutes, or ten years, or ten thousand years, eternity equally follows; and the eternity of the creature's anguish was equally present to the Creator, when he set him up in being.
You may say, as an Arminian, — not as a Calvinist — that God did not foreordain the creature's ruin; but you will not deny that he endowed the creature with a susceptible nature, which, coming in contact with the world, into which he thrust him, he foresaw would work his certain ruin. And what you will not deny is, in the premises, all I ask you to admit. For, either way, the creature's endless misery was present to the divine mind, at the moment of his creation.
And here let it be borne in mind:
First. That it was optional with God whether to create the subject of foreknown, everlasting misery, or not.
Second. That, having created such a being, it is optional with him whether to sustain him in his anguish forever, or to permit him to sink out of it into nought.
Now to say that a God of infinite Love and Justice should sink under his endless curse, the beings whom he has thus created, endowed, and circumstanced!" (end of Mr. Steere's quote)
The answer I get from ET adherents is basically "He's God - He can be as cruel and inhumane as He wants - and how dare you question Him? And who are you to decide what's cruel and inhumane???"
When you look at 'church' history I think it becomes very obvious that Jesus did not found the religion of Christianity. Mopping the blood of 'heretics' off the church floor? Are you kidding me?!
Now, most of us feel that man messed it up, but the reformers straightened it all out (as Wesley and Calvin continued to burn heretics alive). Actually I think it remains an exclusive cult that Jesus would have some choice words for if He were here in the flesh.
I'll quote myself from another thread :
"Jesus founded a church without walls, without ethnic or religious boundaries and without hate or oppression. He spoke of no system of hierarchy. He set no follower above another, but contrarily said "the greatest among you will be a servant". He taught (just as the prophets before him) to stop oppression, to feed the hungry, to reach out to widows and orphans, to be peacemakers - not warmongers, to treat everyone the way you yourself want to be treated. He did not commission the writing of any epistles and did not foretell the compilation of any special book to come.
His harsh words were reserved for hypocritical religious leaders, not the alcoholics, prostitutes and tax collectors He called 'friends'.
Men have sought to twist His message of universal peace and love and build a program of hate and even 'eternal' torment. When they imprisoned and killed people like me they actually thought they were doing God an honorable service. Now when some call me a 'devil' they think the same.
My heart breaks for those who are trapped in this religious lie of separation (from God) and doctrine of pay-back justice instead of the forgiveness we are here to receive and give - freely.
Jesus (Hebrew: Joshua) literally means "The Eternal One makes free".
May our Creator give us eyes to see and ears to hear".
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. When they imprisoned and killed people like me they actually thought they were doing God an honorable service. Now when some call me a 'devil' they think the same.
