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Nevermind, Alpha, misunderstanding on my part. I wasn't thinking along the lines that perhaps you knew 30 veterans as well as who they were voting for. Heck, I'd be hard pressed to name off 30 guys I know who are veterans much less what their voting preferences are. I thought you were saying "All of the veterans I know in real life who are over the age of 30." Sorry for the confusion.
Man, we're not communicating.
I was saying that the veterans I know over 30 are voting for McCain.
Now I know there are veterans over 30 voting for Obama.....I just don't know any (that I'm aware of).
You're not 30, are you? At least I didn't think you were...if I'm wrong my apologies.
If the reason that so many people voted shrub into office was because they thought he'd outlaw abortion and stop gays from marrying, well what has he done to stop it in the last 8 years?
Do they honestly think McCain will stop it all? It's extremely likely he won't either.
I was saying that the veterans I know over 30 are voting for McCain.
Now I know there are veterans over 30 voting for Obama.....I just don't know any (that I'm aware of).
You're not 30, are you? At least I didn't think you were...if I'm wrong my apologies.
No, I'm not thirty. I think I misunderstood your post but I was curious as to why you thought age was a factor. On one hand, I could see that the majority of veterans (and by veterans I am talking about veterans of war - I do realize that anybody who served in the military can and should be considered a veteran) in this day and age would fall in the 'under thirty' bracket simply because most people in the military are younger and we haven't fought a war in recent enough history that those under thirty would fall under without being a veteran of the Iraq/Afghanistan campaigns.
Nonetheless, I can tell you firsthand that the majority of the people in the military usually vote Republican. There are very strong sentiments in the military that Republican presidents typically do more for the troops as well as veterans and I would be somewhat inclined to agree except for the fact that I watched more people chopped from the military between 2003 and 2007 in a "force reshaping" plan under the Bush Administration that has not only been absolutely successful in cutting tens of thousands (as in multiples of tens like 40, 50, 60, and 70 x 1000) of Air Force jobs but also proposed a BRAC (base realignment and closure) that closed numerous bases both at home and abroad. You live in North Carolina. You may be surprised to know that Ft. Bragg is now a consolidated "super-base" that has gobbled up Pope AFB. But, what that does for local economies is horrible. There are entire cities that have sprawled up outside military bases across the country that feed off of the local military communites. So, when a base closes, the people assigned to that base may just be relocated but the thousands of people living outside the gate have no life support and fold up.
But, that's beside the point. The point I'm trying to get at in all of this is that the under thirty crowd of veterans is more than likely a tired group of people. While I can only speak from an Air Force perspective, I can say that I got tired of seeing flag draped coffins loaded into the back of our airplanes for another ride back home to another mother or father who sent his or her son off to war. And I got away relatively unscathed, Alpha, with only a few minor sights I wish I hadn't seen. But there are a plethora, thousands more people, just like me who are my age that saw and dealt with a lot more. And I'm talking about a helluva lot more.
Now, on the one hand, I have no doubt that John McCain is serious about veteran affairs. I think that he truly would understand the trials that so many veterans face when they come back home. I really do. But, I also sit here and think to myself how anyone can possibly look at the names of the over 4,000 people killed in Iraq alone along with an estimated 30,000 or more troops wounded from the things they've experience as well as those who are mentally scarred (whose numbers must reach into the extremities of enormous proportions) and I wonder who is really advocating for the veterans? Because, there's one thing I'm sure of, Alpha. If this war continues, which McCain has said he plans to keep moving along with, there will be countless thousands more both killed, wounded, and scarred.
And that brings a question to my mind. I can advocate all I want for veterans rights. I think that so many have done so much more than I have that those veterans who really earned it deserve to be treated with the best of care. But, I wonder. Why should I be left to think about the affairs of veterans of foreign wars for those who don't need to be veterans of foreign wars? With no doubt in my mind, and I don't believe in Obama's or McCain's mind, that the veterans of not just Iraq and Afghanistan but also Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, and any other conflict that comes to mind should have the best of care. But, why should I continue to support a war effort that is going to produce more veterans with these scars whether mental or physical? How am I advocating for the guys I once worked with and considered family by voting for a man who wants to keep sending those who elected to stay in the military on continuous rotations in and out of Iraq? I can't bring myself to do it, Alpha. I can't. I wouldn't feel right with myself to think that I voted for someone who is going to continue putting some of the best people on this planet in harms way only to promise them good benefits upon their return home albeit a return home that may not be in the same condition of which they left.
The best benefit a veteran of a war can possibly receive is to have never gone to war in the first place, Alpha. And if Obama is going to at least stick his nose out and say that he's going to bring our troops home in 16 months than I have to give the man a chance. That, and along with several other topics are precisely why I am voting for Obama. But I can't sit here for another four years and listen to John McCain talk about the incessant need to defeat terrorists in Iraq. I can't stomach it. But, don't worry, the guys doing all the dirty work in those four years will have good benefits upon their return home.
Anything that goes against the Bible, which is pretty much everything that liberals advocate.
And I could argue that conservatives are just as guilty of going against the Bible by trying to legislate morality, to require laws and standards for everyone to point out who is righteous and who is not. It sounds like the same problem the Pharisees ran into...remember them?
You heard Christ say "Go, and sin no more." to the woman at the well as well as to the adulterous woman (and I suspect plenty of other folks). Where do you read that Christ said to make sure your neighbor does not sin, or anyone else for that matter? Did he say to enact more laws or to try to legislate away sin? I don't read that anywhere in my Bible. I would argue that he advocated the opposite. Laws do not make people righteous or unrighteous and yet the majority of religious conservatives focus on what is legal or illegal rather than individuals. As I stated previously, Christ was about people not politics.
Yes, Obama is the anointed one, the one we have been waiting for since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ himself. I believe that once Obama ascends to power, he will dispel all evil from the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronK
Obama will tell us anything we want to hear.
However, there is one issue that is a deal breaker for me, and that is abortion, of which Obama supports and McCain does not.
To me, it isn't the quantity of issues I disagree with, it is the quality of issues. And that one particular issue is held near and dear to my heart.
Wow, you really changed your beliefs. Now you strongly support Senator Obama. Ahh well, as long as you're making an informed vote - good for you!!
Anything that goes against the Bible, which is pretty much everything that liberals advocate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silas777
Well to begin with I believe the Republican is always the default candidate for most mainstream Christians
That Bill Ayer's THING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal
What does it say about you as a Christian if you put your needs in front of God's will?
What type of Christian do you think you will be?
Once again, this is one of the more mesmerizing threads June has read in a long while...
At any rate, June just wanted to comment on a few aspects of what she's been mesmerized by here:
Northsouth: With all due respect, (and June truly means that!) June resides in what has been characterized/depicted as one of the most liberal states in America. (Something that forever and always confounds June, but anyway...) And even heathen, atheist June can say that there are an awful lot of liberals up here who DO advocate for what the Bible says. --Hell, even June herself would not go so far as to say that she would not, (based on the principle of the message found therein,) say the Bible was a bad thing...
#2- Ah, the "Bill Ayers thing." Now this one particularly fascinates June, as June is old enough to remember the Weather Underground. It was all rather shocking back then. However, one of the things that June recently learned, and found equally if not more shocking was the fact that the vast majority of those who comprised the Weather Underground ended up becoming:
Republicans.
As regards the question that Reformed Liberal poses, June is genuinelly not sure that she sees a whole lotta people here putting their needs in front of God's will as much as she sees a whole lotta people putting their agendas in front of what is perceived as being God's will. (Along with feeling, claiming, and believing that they are the ones who have the "corner" on what is God's will...)
And lastly, June's personal favorite: She is utterly confounded by all that she reads, utterly confused by all that she reads, utterly saddened by all that she reads, such that she can only answer your querie by stating:
She has no idea what kind of Christian she could possibly be.
I'm actually interested in this as I think its fascinating.
What are the reasons?
I'll state why I think its fascinating then promise not to try to post in the thread. I don't want this thread viewed as me trying to get into arguement.
Why its fascinating to me:
1. From my POV it seems that in the middle of one of the greatest financial crisis (whats the plural of crisis?) the right wing seems more concerned with abortion. That fascinates me.
2. From my POV it seems that in the middle of one of the greatest financial crisis (whats the plural of crisis?) the right wing seems more concerned with homosexuality. That fascinates me.
3. Obama is proposing that 95% of the population gets a tax cut. I don't make over $250K so I look at that as a good thing. The fact that others don't see it that way.. fascinates me.
4. Is it foriegn policy? I ask because even if you think Obama isn't "qualified" he at least chose a VP that has years of foriegn policy experience. You can't really say the same about McCain.
5. Is it Veterans affairs? I non partisian report was released just today that gives McCain a D (as in Doh) in Veterans affairs. Obama got a B.
6. Is it healthcare? McCain doesn't think its a right. Tell that to any hospital administrator that has an ER room. Its already a right.
All these things fascinate me. What is it then? Is it the Bill Ayers thing? Is that what tips the scales?
Alright... I'm stepping away. I'm going to try to stay away from the thread and just read it (unless someone directly asks me a question). I just really want to know. Maybe I'm missing something..
Thanks in advance to anyone that posts..
Christians like McCain because he has a 100% pro life voting record. Obama has a 100% pro choice voting record. Obama even supports late term abortions. The choice for Christians is clear.
--As June understands it, (the true definition of "the Church") she'd have to say that for the most part, she's just spent a good hour or more reading eleven pages of it...
--As June understands it, (the true definition of "the Church") she'd have to say that for the most part, she's just spent a good hour or more reading eleven pages of it...
No June, no ,no that is not the church..Thats not the church
These eleven pages is a classic lesson in why we should not mix religiom with politics ......
No, I'm not thirty. I think I misunderstood your post but I was curious as to why you thought age was a factor. On one hand, I could see that the majority of veterans (and by veterans I am talking about veterans of war - I do realize that anybody who served in the military can and should be considered a veteran) in this day and age would fall in the 'under thirty' bracket simply because most people in the military are younger and we haven't fought a war in recent enough history that those under thirty would fall under without being a veteran of the Iraq/Afghanistan campaigns.
I didn't think you were 30.
I don't know about your comments regarding 'vast majority of veterans in this day and age would fall in the under 30 bracket'....I highly doubt that. There are a lot of Vietnam vets out there.....
US Census Bureau (2004) reports there are 8.2 million "Vietnam Era Veterans". Of these 2.59 million are reported to have served "in country".
More than 58,000 US personnel died as a result of the conflict. [2] This comprises deaths from all categories including deaths while missing, captured, non-hostile deaths, homicides, and suicides. The US Department of Veterans Affairs recognizes veterans that served in the country then known as the Republic of Vietnam from February 28, 1961 to May 7, 1975, as being eligible for such programs as the department's Readjustment Counseling Services program (aka Vet Centers) Vietnam War Veterans had to go through many hardships. It was the last American war with conscription.
Honestly, this is what I was going to say and I hope it isn't offensive, but I don't think it's fair to put this Iraq/Afghan War in even the same league with other wars....there's just no comparison (58,000 dead Americans in Vietnam in approx 10 years). And I'm not saying you did that Troop, you didn't. I just wonder how the majority of Vietnam Vets feel about the election.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Nonetheless, I can tell you firsthand that the majority of the people in the military usually vote Republican. There are very strong sentiments in the military that Republican presidents typically do more for the troops as well as veterans and I would be somewhat inclined to agree except for the fact that I watched more people chopped from the military between 2003 and 2007 in a "force reshaping" plan under the Bush Administration that has not only been absolutely successful in cutting tens of thousands (as in multiples of tens like 40, 50, 60, and 70 x 1000) of Air Force jobs but also proposed a BRAC (base realignment and closure) that closed numerous bases both at home and abroad. You live in North Carolina. You may be surprised to know that Ft. Bragg is now a consolidated "super-base" that has gobbled up Pope AFB. But, what that does for local economies is horrible. There are entire cities that have sprawled up outside military bases across the country that feed off of the local military communites. So, when a base closes, the people assigned to that base may just be relocated but the thousands of people living outside the gate have no life support and fold up.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
But, that's beside the point. The point I'm trying to get at in all of this is that the under thirty crowd of veterans is more than likely a tired group of people. While I can only speak from an Air Force perspective, I can say that I got tired of seeing flag draped coffins loaded into the back of our airplanes for another ride back home to another mother or father who sent his or her son off to war. And I got away relatively unscathed, Alpha, with only a few minor sights I wish I hadn't seen. But there are a plethora, thousands more people, just like me who are my age that saw and dealt with a lot more. And I'm talking about a helluva lot more.
I can not imagine what it must be like to be a soldier fighting in a war. I thank God for our military and pray for our troops nightly. I've got two of my former youth group in active combat duty right now. Thank you for your service to our country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Now, on the one hand, I have no doubt that John McCain is serious about veteran affairs. I think that he truly would understand the trials that so many veterans face when they come back home. I really do. But, I also sit here and think to myself how anyone can possibly look at the names of the over 4,000 people killed in Iraq alone along with an estimated 30,000 or more troops wounded from the things they've experience as well as those who are mentally scarred (whose numbers must reach into the extremities of enormous proportions) and I wonder who is really advocating for the veterans? Because, there's one thing I'm sure of, Alpha. If this war continues, which McCain has said he plans to keep moving along with, there will be countless thousands more both killed, wounded, and scarred.
Regarding that last sentence, you would advocate a president should just turn and run?
Because you either have to continue on and finish the mission or turn and run leaving all those lives lost for nada.
From JohnMcCain.com (see in particular the bolded section)
Quote:
John McCain believes it is strategically and morally essential for the United States to support the Government of Iraq to become capable of governing itself and safeguarding its people. He strongly disagrees with those who advocate withdrawing American troops before that has occurred.
It would be a grave mistake to leave before Al Qaeda in Iraq is defeated and before a competent, trained, and capable Iraqi security force is in place and operating effectively. We must help the Government of Iraq battle those who provoke sectarian tensions and promote a civil war that could destabilize the Middle East. Iraq must not become a failed state, a haven for terrorists, or a pawn of Iran. These likely consequences of America's failure in Iraq almost certainly would either require us to return or draw us into a wider and far costlier war.
The best way to secure long-term peace and security is to establish a stable, prosperous, and democratic state in Iraq that poses no threat to its neighbors and contributes to the defeat of terrorists. When Iraqi forces can safeguard their own country, American troops can return home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
And that brings a question to my mind. I can advocate all I want for veterans rights. I think that so many have done so much more than I have that those veterans who really earned it deserve to be treated with the best of care. But, I wonder. Why should I be left to think about the affairs of veterans of foreign wars for those who don't need to be veterans of foreign wars? With no doubt in my mind, and I don't believe in Obama's or McCain's mind, that the veterans of not just Iraq and Afghanistan but also Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, and any other conflict that comes to mind should have the best of care. But, why should I continue to support a war effort that is going to produce more veterans with these scars whether mental or physical? How am I advocating for the guys I once worked with and considered family by voting for a man who wants to keep sending those who elected to stay in the military on continuous rotations in and out of Iraq? I can't bring myself to do it, Alpha. I can't. I wouldn't feel right with myself to think that I voted for someone who is going to continue putting some of the best people on this planet in harms way only to promise them good benefits upon their return home albeit a return home that may not be in the same condition of which they left.
(Emphasis Mine)
When you join the military, if you don't consider the fact you may be put in harm's way then you're very naive. We could debate all day about justified vs. unjustified, worth it vs. not worth it.....but it's part of a soldiers life. I think most of them realize that but I might be wrong. I certainly have no idea what it's like on the inside. Also, you think Afghanistan isn't worth it? We know for a fact Afghanistan played a huge role in 9/11.....what about those 3000 civilian casualties? If you don't think our military should be there would you be in support of the military at least providing a ride for a civilian militia? I hope so. I'd rather fight them there than here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
The best benefit a veteran of a war can possibly receive is to have never gone to war in the first place, Alpha. And if Obama is going to at least stick his nose out and say that he's going to bring our troops home in 16 months than I have to give the man a chance. That, and along with several other topics are precisely why I am voting for Obama. But I can't sit here for another four years and listen to John McCain talk about the incessant need to defeat terrorists in Iraq. I can't stomach it. But, don't worry, the guys doing all the dirty work in those four years will have good benefits upon their return home.
That's the second post this week I've read from you that sounds like it was written by a Fonda. I get it, you hate war. Not just this war but all war. And I doo too, Troop.
It appears your experiences have put you in some situations you can't shake from your mind, and I can appreciate that. But what are our options when we are threatened and attacked?
I guarantee you that there are veterans of Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Bosnia, the Tet Offensive, Grenada etc that saw similar if not far worse than you have seen and I'm willing to bet they hate war too.
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