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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I didn't think you were 30.
I don't know about your comments regarding 'vast majority of veterans in this day and age would fall in the under 30 bracket'....I highly doubt that. There are a lot of Vietnam vets out there.....
From Wikipedia: |
I wasn't saying that the majority of veterans are under the age of 30, Alpha. I was saying that the majority, if not the entirety of veterans, UNDER the age of 30 are Iraq/Afghanistan vets. You brought up the age thing which is why I asked you earlier to clarify on that. Because I fail to see how age has anything to do with it unless you were trying to point out that the veterans you know are mostly Vietnam veterans. Otherwise, I'm still lost as to what you meant but I was giving you the take of a veteran under the age of thirty.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Honestly, this is what I was going to say and I hope it isn't offensive, but I don't think it's fair to put this Iraq/Afghan War in even the same league with other wars....there's just no comparison (58,000 dead Americans in Vietnam in approx 10 years). And I'm not saying you did that Troop, you didn't. I just wonder how the majority of Vietnam Vets feel about the election.
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Vietnam is a little different. You know something? I happened to see a picture of the Vietnam Wall the other day in which the names are written in chronological order and not alphabetical order. Interestingly enough, the first name on the list was in 1954. Most people don't know that.
As far as the Vietnam Vets go, there's one thing I can say that's a lot different between now and then from what I understand. When I came home from Iraq we flew into Bangor, Maine at about two or three in the morning to refuel and stretch our legs. When we walked out in the terminal, there were a group of about eight or nine veterans (mostly Vietnam but one WWII, I think) standing there wanting to shake our hands. This was two or three in the morning and they were up and about wanting to shake our hands. It's my understanding that the Vietnam Vets didn't have anything that remotely resembled that, Alpha. In fact, most of them came home to the chants of "baby killer", "warmonger", and a slew of other vulgarities that come to mind. I can't imagine that. I can't imagine being
drafted into the military and forced under law to go and serve and fight only to come home and be spit on and called a baby killer.
So, if there's one thing I'm very thankful for it's the fact that the Iraq/Afghanistan veterans are being welcomed home in a much different fashion than the Vietnam Vets. Nonetheless, those Vietnam Vets who earned so much more than what they deserved
DO deserve nothing but the best but that also doesn't make our current foreign policies correct or incorrect, our fiscal woes valid or invalid, or any other agenda that the McCain administration is saying they will amend if they come to power. While I can certainly respect and admire any Vietnam Vet voting in what they feel are their best interests, there's an entire country out there that has been raped and pillaged by the current administration that McCain's campaign is just not answering properly as to how it's going to fix things.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I can not imagine what it must be like to be a soldier fighting in a war. I thank God for our military and pray for our troops nightly. I've got two of my former youth group in active combat duty right now. Thank you for your service to our country.
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Can I be honest? I've been told "Thank You" in regards to my service a lot. But, I honestly don't know how to respond to that. I mean, I know how to respond in saying "Your Welcome" but I never feel genuine in how I say it. I always feel like I'm squeezing out a fake pat on the back from someone. Truth be told, I think if you asked most of us how we felt when we came back that we didn't do anything special at all. Now don't take that the wrong way and presume that it's not appreciated but it's hard to respond to because I think a lot of us feel like "We could have done more, I didn't do this or that, I should have done this or that, etc..." and not that we aren't necessarily undeserving of a "Thank You" but that we didn't earn a "Thank You". At least, that's how I feel. There are a lot of elements I think about in regards to how the guys I was with performed and how we could have done better or participated more. Part of me wishes I would have stayed longer. Nevertheless, I understand what people mean when they say "Thank You" but it's hard for me to comprehend it and so I say "Your Welcome" very often with a slight tinge of guilt on my conscience.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Regarding that last sentence, you would advocate a president should just turn and run?
Because you either have to continue on and finish the mission or turn and run leaving all those lives lost for nada.
From JohnMcCain.com (see in particular the bolded section) |
So where is the line drawn,
Alpha? What's the line of acceptable vs. unacceptable losses? Is it 58,000? Is that where we draw the line? Do we have to watch 54,000 more troops die before it becomes understood that we should "turn and run"?? What point is advocating pulling out and "turning and running" a better option than letting not only our troops die but countless amounts of them as well as enormous amounts of civilians wounded both physically and mentally? Is it never? So, fine. We stay and fight the mission in Iraq. What happens when our death toll keeps creeping up? Did we "turn and run" from Vietnam,
Alpha? Or was the element of what we were fighting for negated by the heavy casualties? And how do you affix a label on that?
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
(Emphasis Mine)
When you join the military, if you don't consider the fact you may be put in harm's way then you're very naive. We could debate all day about justified vs. unjustified, worth it vs. not worth it.....but it's part of a soldiers life. I think most of them realize that but I might be wrong. I certainly have no idea what it's like on the inside. Also, you think Afghanistan isn't worth it? We know for a fact Afghanistan played a huge role in 9/11.....what about those 3000 civilian casualties? If you don't think our military should be there would you be in support of the military at least providing a ride for a civilian militia? I hope so. I'd rather fight them there than here.
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You're absolutely right. If you join the military and don't suspect to be sent off into harm's way than, yeah, you would be naive. Yet, it's funny how many recruiters still manage to convince eighteen year old males and females to join the service despite the potential dangers involved. They're good - really good. Despite that, I think you have to really understand the military lifestyle to understand why someone would re-enlist despite the fact they're being sent off to war every couple of months. Believe it or not, the pay isn't that bad in the military when it's all said and done. No, I wasn't living in an oceanfront mansion, but I made an honest wage and with all of the side money I was earning as well as the free medical and dental care for my wife and I; I have to say I was doing pretty well. And I don't have kids. A lot of guys have two, three, four, and five kids and there are a lot of jobs that don't translate well into the civilian sector. What do you think the going rate, in this economy, is for someone who assembled air to surface missiles? So, a lot of guys are pretty much stuck. They've got mouths to feed, kids to take care of, and the medical benefits are an utter necessity. And so many of them are stuck in this perpetual cycle of being tired of deploying but doing so for their families. It's a strange cycle. Despite the constant deployments, I was heavily considering "re-upping" if for no other reason than I knew I had a steady source of income and benefits for my wife and I. Given the current state of affairs and the fact that the economy is in the rut it's in, you'd almost be crazy to get out at this point in time. I was lucky. I got out and found a job before everything tanked.
As far as Afghanistan is concerned; I think that while I am not a fan of war in any capacity that we have lost sight of the ultimate mission in Afghanistan. We toppled the Taliban within a few months but I have to wonder how we can spend $12 billion a month in Iraq (I'm pretty sure that's what it is) and spend roughly the equivalent in Afghanistan in seven years. Is it just me or does it sound like we've lost sight of things in Afghanistan? And to be honest with you, with the limited and reduced troop capacity that we have in Afghanistan, it is starting to become more dangerous than Iraq is. And when our administrations are not doing the best they can to keep our troops out of harm's way, up to and including giving them everything they need to complete their mission - if that's the route we're taking - than they need to be held accountable for that. Do I agree with Afghanistan? I think it's a lot more justified than the Iraq War will ever be. I don't agree with war, but I think there's a modicum of understanding as to why we're there. I don't think anybody
really understands why we're in Iraq.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
That's the second post this week I've read from you that sounds like it was written by a Fonda. I get it, you hate war. Not just this war but all war. And I doo too, Troop.
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I'll be sure to sound a little more Ted Nugent for you next time.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
It appears your experiences have put you in some situations you can't shake from your mind, and I can appreciate that. But what are our options when we are threatened and attacked?
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I'm not saying that we need to abandon our military and take any military force off the table. But what I
DO think is that we throw our military weight around a little too much a little too quickly. And yet, the American people seem to absolutely
LOVE it and that frustrates me. There's a reason why the rest of the world hates us or has become very frustrated with us,
Alpha. We are a nation of impulse, act now and think about it later, and we are not willing to listen to other people's ration and logic if we so happen to disagree with them. The strange thing is... It never fails to amaze me how many Christians can sit here and rally and cry against "needless abortions" but be so supportive of combat. It's one of the most oxymoronic things I can think of.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I guarantee you that there are veterans of Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Bosnia, the Tet Offensive, Grenada etc that saw similar if not far worse than you have seen and I'm willing to bet they hate war too.
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Without a doubt in my mind those people saw and dealt with a lot more and I'm sure they hate it too.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
War is HELL, but what are our options?
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How about we listen to the advice of other countries before we go barreling into places we don't belong? Why are we unable, as a nation, to do that? And what are our options for what? An attack on us? A defense against an attack? Thwarting a "pre-eminent" strike? What justifies military action and non-military action? We throw it around too much and we finally got bitten - ONCE AGAIN.
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