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Articles, articles, articles. I am not interested in what everybody else thinks these things mean, only what God says they mean in the context of the bible.
Hi Dalton, yes the articles can be overwhelming.
What you must realize is that many articles can be 100% based on scripture and give you bigger insight than a sermon from you local pastor. Do you only study alone with no input from anyone? It is possible to do it that way, but there is a wealth of info out there to help you.
If you don't want to read them, you can also search these forums for many of your questions, but the answers are more sporadic here.
Let me give you some basics. Do you think God desire's to save all men? Do you think he will fail to achieve his desire? Do you think some will always reject God so that Christ won't be able to save them?
This is what scripture says:
1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
So God desires to save all men. Does God achieve all He desires?
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
God's word achieve's what He desires. He does what He pleases and achieves His purposes. But will some people reject Him forever? No: Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will eventually swear allegiance to God. This is talking about a willing oath of loyalty.
So there you have the basics:
1. God wants everyone saved
2. God is able to achieve what He desires
3. No one will reject him forever
See how one can come to a belief in universal salvation?
I would argue all day that this word means everlasting I dont know why ppl wanna avoid it.
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Trust me, no one is avoiding it here. This word has been argued to death here. The strong's definition you quoted is only describing how the KJV translates it, so that does not help. Check another bible like Young's Literal or the Concordant literal.
This is one spot where reading some articles might really help, if only to save some time arguing here.
LOL did I entice you to click on it? Come on you know you want to
Here is an excerpt:
Aionios: what it really means
Word meaning changes over time. This is natural. To understand an old word, two methods may be employed: knowing a word's roots (etymology), and studying its usage to determine how much the word usage matches the etymology. Many words we use today adhere to the etymology. Dictionaries use etymology to give clues on either present meanings, or to demonstrate how word meaning changes over time to mean something other than originally intended. First, let's look at the etymology of aionios, then we will examine the Biblical word usage. Consider this: the English name Christian was first used by non-Christians to describe Jesus Christ's early followers. The term means "of Christ" or "pertaining to Christ." Why is this revealing when considering the word eonian?
Likewise, in considering the parts of the Greek aionios, it is formed from two: aion (age) and the suffix -ios (pertaining to). Thus, aionios means pertaining to aion or pertaining to ages.
What you must realize is that many articles can be 100% based on scripture and give you bigger insight than a sermon from you local pastor. Do you only study alone with no input from anyone? It is possible to do it that way, but there is a wealth of info out there to help you.
If you don't want to read them, you can also search these forums for many of your questions, but the answers are more sporadic here.
Let me give you some basics. Do you think God desire's to save all men? Do you think he will fail to achieve his desire? Do you think some will always reject God so that Christ won't be able to save them?
This is what scripture says:
1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
So God desires to save all men. Does God achieve all He desires?
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
God's word achieve's what He desires. He does what He pleases and achieves His purposes. But will some people reject Him forever? No: Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will eventually swear allegiance to God. This is talking about a willing oath of loyalty.
So there you have the basics:
1. God wants everyone saved
2. God is able to achieve what He desires
3. No one will reject him forever
See how one can come to a belief in universal salvation?
You know what, I really appreciate you posting this. That is what I wanted. I do see why no doubt. I believe God chooses to let us decide although yes He does want all me to be saved no doubt. I think if salvation is given to the worst of ppl (morally) and the best, then why live a moral life would be my only question? Yes we do it bc we love Him and are thankful, but not all feel that way. Some ppl deny his very existence ya know? Do you understand why I feel different?
On the whole "aionios" thing, there is definitely debate on it. Personally I think it only means "pertaining to the ages". Others in the UR camp believe it can have a more metaphoric meaning like "continuing on" or "lasting until a point we can't see".
For example, I might say "it took me forever to get through traffic today". Or "It will be forever before I die." These are indicating it only feels like forever, but is not in fact literally forever, just a long unknown time.
One thing to note is that the bible itself defines "aionios life", and it is simply "knowing God". See John 17:3
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Notice this verse does not specify anything about time duration. "aionios life" is simply knowing the true God and Jesus.
Lol what? We decide whether to read the bible or not. God does not "open our ears" lol.
You are sorely mistaken about that, as the following scripture will show you:
1 Cor 2:14
Jn 6:44
Jn 3:3-8
Jn 1:10
Rom 8:28-30
You obviously think men have "freewill" to choose whether or not they follow God. This is not biblical according to the word of God...only those He draws can come to Him. Then once He draws us in and we hear the Gospel, we can respond, in faith, this is what grace is all about.
no different with "aionion" from a contextual perspective. In a verse it can mean a period of time or it can mean eternal.
AIONIOS NEVER MEANS EVERLASTING
For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal. See
A common argument is that the subject matter changes aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal. This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense. Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations
But even if it is insisted that aionios sometimes means everlasting, to argue that “eternal” punishment must be of unending duration because it is contrasted with “eternal” life (Mt 25:46) misses the point. It fails to recognize that “eternal” life is a quality of relationship with God (Jn. 17:3) and is an end in itself, while “eternal” punishment is God’s corrective discipline and a means to an end. It is the result of the punishment (kolasis aionion) that is “eternal,” not the punishment itself.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
TWO COMMON QUESTIONS
QUESTION ONE:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of God come to an end?
ANSWER:
Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation versus / King James Version
•
Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began
• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28
QUESTION TWO: If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?
ANSWER:
While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement). Chapter Eleven
Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.
Because of the “eonian” nature of God’s revelation, culminating with the consummation of the ages in 1Corinthians 15, we can see that “eonian life” leads into “eternity” at the end of the ages. Therefore there is no real threat to “eternal life,” even though punishment/correction is not eternal, but only for an age.
There are a number of Greek words that imply eternal but aionios is not one of them.
They are usually translated “indestructible,” “imperishable,” “unfading,” “immortality,” and “incorruptible.” Ro. 1:23; 2:7; 1Cor. 9:25; 15:42, 51-54; He. 7:15,16; 1Pe. 1:3,4; 5:4; 1Ti. 1:17; 6:16; 2Ti. 1:10.
Our hope of immortality does not reside in the word aionios, but in God’s very nature (unfailing love and unlimited power) and promises.
There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is "aidios" as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.
It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young's literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios. Both of them refer to a limited period of time.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.
If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by Jesus' contemporaries.
Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" also see the following: Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
You know what, I really appreciate you posting this. That is what I wanted. I do see why no doubt. I believe God chooses to let us decide although yes He does want all me to be saved no doubt. I think if salvation is given to the worst of ppl (morally) and the best, then why live a moral life would be my only question? Yes we do it bc we love Him and are thankful, but not all feel that way. Some ppl deny his very existence ya know? Do you understand why I feel different?
Glad it helped. Your questions are fairly common when one first learns of universal salvation. You can find out more info by, you guessed it, reading some of the articles in this thread.
But come back to my previous post. You already agree that God desires to save all men. Why do you think He won't achieve his desire? Scripture says He will. Is man's "free" will more powerful than God's sovereign will? Do you think some will reject Him forever? We know that can't be because all will eventually swear allegiance to Him.
I understand what you are asking, and yes many people deny Him in this life. But where does it say God's salvation offer expires at a person's death? Does God's desire to save all men suddenly change to a desire to torture a man after that man has died?
You ask why should anyone live a moral life. The answer is because it is the good thing to do. Poor choices have bad consequences, and I'm not talking about eternal hell. Look at the parable of the prodigal son. He wanted to live his own immoral life, and his father let him. He partied for a while but eventually ended up in the mud eating with the pigs. Those were his consequences. His situation caused him to realize how good life was with his father, and he repented and came home humbled. And his father welcomed with open arms!
God lets (actually causes) us rebel so that we will learn consequences, and learn humility. All will be humbled one way or another.
The bottom line. Is God lying when He says He wants to save us? No. Is He unable to save us? No. Does God require us to live a perfect life to be saved? No. In fact, God is in control of this world, and giving us some suffering so that we will develop some good character traits - patience, humility, endurance, hope, and faith, to name a few. These are all traits of love. God is love, and God is forming us into His image, which is love.
So can God not save Hitler even though He desires to save all? Can God not save Judas, even though Judas was doomed to be the one that betrayed Christ? Judas never had a chance. We are not so good that we can say we are better than a Hitler or a Judas. God is good and powerful enough to save all, and no one will reject Him once they understand. They will all swear allegiance and praise Him joyfully.
It really is good news for all men just like Luke 2:10 say. Peace out!
No one actually behaves like they believe in eternal hell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Good post, lego.
And, those of us who had breakdowns because of the belief in an eternal hell needed that deception removed before we could freely receive and trust the love of God in Christ.
HOPE BEYOND HELL
No one actually behaves like they believe in eternal hell
Last Sunday, Rev. Smith preached a powerful message on the second coming of Christ, and the last judgment. He boldly laid the grim destiny of mankind before his congregation.
After his sermon and the closing prayer, he announced: ‘We’re all meeting at Kingdom Park this afternoon at 1 p.m. for our Annual Fellowship Banquet. Men, don’t forget your golf clubs, and the pastries, Ladies!’
The reality that our lives can go on so casually after such a heart wrenching sermon proves one of three possibilities:
1. We are totally oblivious to the horror of everlasting punishment.
2. If we are not oblivious, then in our heart of hearts, we really do not believe it.
3. Or, (and please brace yourself and forgive me for saying so), we must be the most despicable, pathetic, detestable, wretched, and loathsome creatures in the universe worthy of the severest punishment.
The atheist Nitschke said, “If I believed in eternal hell I would crawl across England on my hands and knees on cut glass to take the gospel to just one person.”
There is Hope Beyond Hell. And not just hope as the world defines hope. We have the full assurance of Scripture that God has no intention of letting anyone be tormented forever in hell.
He is about the business of bringing all into subjection to Him, reconciling all until Himself, that one day He will be All in all. And not a single lamb will be lost.
Be another voice among Believers in this present day to proclaim God’s correct and full evangel.
He is indeed the Saviour of all!
HOPE BEYOND HELL (online reading) - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published) http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
The following amazing online writing could just as easily have been called
EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT HELL AND MORE
HISTORY OF OPINIONS ON THE SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE OF RETRIBUTION http://hopebeyondhell.net/history.php
The problem is that is not true. It can mean everlasting, this issue is when it does, what context is it in. What I see is this battle over a definition when the noun aion does not only mean age, so it is incorrect to say that aionios can only pertain to an age.
Gods declaration to save all mankind is not threatened by any argument over this word. In fact by seeing translations in both perspective gives me a greater picture of the way man sees things and how God actually is.
The ways and contexts that render the words aion and aionios various ways is a blessing when you see it.
The problem is that is not true. It can mean everlasting, this issue is when it does, what context is it in. What I see is this battle over a definition when the noun aion does not only mean age, so it is incorrect to say that aionios can only pertain to an age.
Gods declaration to save all mankind is not threatened by any argument over this word. In fact by seeing translations in both perspective gives me a greater picture of the way man sees things and how God actually is.
The ways and contexts that render the words aion and aionios various ways is a blessing when you see it.
Here is why I think aion and aionios never mean eternal.
Notice in the following concordance that there are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense. The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
But I'm glad you can find blessing in seeing it both ways.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-19-2009 at 02:58 AM..
Reason: spelling
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Aionios never means everlasting
