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Glad it helped. Your questions are fairly common when one first learns of universal salvation. You can find out more info by, you guessed it, reading some of the articles in this thread.
But come back to my previous post. You already agree that God desires to save all men. Why do you think He won't achieve his desire? Scripture says He will. Is man's "free" will more powerful than God's sovereign will? Do you think some will reject Him forever? We know that can't be because all will eventually swear allegiance to Him.
I understand what you are asking, and yes many people deny Him in this life. But where does it say God's salvation offer expires at a person's death? Does God's desire to save all men suddenly change to a desire to torture a man after that man has died?
You ask why should anyone live a moral life. The answer is because it is the good thing to do. Poor choices have bad consequences, and I'm not talking about eternal hell. Look at the parable of the prodigal son. He wanted to live his own immoral life, and his father let him. He partied for a while but eventually ended up in the mud eating with the pigs. Those were his consequences. His situation caused him to realize how good life was with his father, and he repented and came home humbled. And his father welcomed with open arms!
God lets (actually causes) us rebel so that we will learn consequences, and learn humility. All will be humbled one way or another.
The bottom line. Is God lying when He says He wants to save us? No. Is He unable to save us? No. Does God require us to live a perfect life to be saved? No. In fact, God is in control of this world, and giving us some suffering so that we will develop some good character traits - patience, humility, endurance, hope, and faith, to name a few. These are all traits of love. God is love, and God is forming us into His image, which is love.
So can God not save Hitler even though He desires to save all? Can God not save Judas, even though Judas was doomed to be the one that betrayed Christ? Judas never had a chance. We are not so good that we can say we are better than a Hitler or a Judas. God is good and powerful enough to save all, and no one will reject Him once they understand. They will all swear allegiance and praise Him joyfully.
It really is good news for all men just like Luke 2:10 say. Peace out!
Glad it helped DaltonG. Your questions are fairly common when one first learns of universal salvation. You can find out more info by, you guessed it, reading some of the articles in this thread.
Question: Do you think the Lake of Fire is a physical body of fire that will burn people forever?
Actually it is not as plain as you would think. Yes Luke 16 is quite often used as proof as an eternal hell. But reading it literally, it doesn't actually say its eternal.
But the real problem is Luke 16 is not a literal description. It is a parable. There are many problems if we treat it as a real description of hell. Can those in heaven really talk to those in hell? Would a drop of water really matter if you are being burned in flame?
In fact this is simply a parable, which is filled with symbols. What is the meaning of the "rich man"? The "purple clothing"? The name "Lazarus"? The "table scraps"? "Abraham's Bosom"? These are all symbols. Read these 3 articles:
As for the lake of fire and judgment, you have to understand what the purpose of judgment is. Judgment is for correction, and ultimately it teaches people righteousness. This is a big topic. Fire is used to burn things up. Spiritual fire burns up our works, refines and purifies us, and ultimately saves. More articles for you to read:
“and without a parable spake Jesus not unto them” Matthew 13:34
More evidence that the rich man and Lazarus IS NOT a story about the final destiny of any fallen creature. Another comprehensive exposition on the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham's Bosom
The problem is that is not true. It can mean everlasting, this issue is when it does, what context is it in. What I see is this battle over a definition when the noun aion does not only mean age, so it is incorrect to say that aionios can only pertain to an age.
Gods declaration to save all mankind is not threatened by any argument over this word. In fact by seeing translations in both perspective gives me a greater picture of the way man sees things and how God actually is.
The ways and contexts that render the words aion and aionios various ways is a blessing when you see it.
As I understand it ... Aion is defined in Ephesians 3 ... It cannot mean anything other than how it is used in that Chapter. The most compelling evidence that Aion means age and never eternal or everlasting is the fact it has a plural form. There cannot be multiple eternities. Whats more, the Greek word Aion is the translational equivalent of Olam in the Hebrew. Olam means beyond the horizon, and not forever. You have to understand the words from the perspective of the people who spoke them in that time and not from the western perspective. The Hebrew people didn't even have a concept of eternity in the sense that we do today. There view of time was cyclical and circular and not linear.
Aionios and aionion are adjective forms of aion and cannot carry a stronger meaning than the word from whence they are derived.
Even when Plato used this word in reference to eternal qualities, it was almost always in conjunction with the word aidios which gave it that extra meaning of persistent or unchanging. It seems according to Plato that Aionios is the temporal ever changing image of eternity which is the linear passage of time through the seasons over the years throughout the generations everlasting. Of course we know the the Hellenistic view of linear time does not mesh with the Hebrew. According to Paul time has a beginning and an end. And the use of the term aion and its adjectives throughout the new testament, though baring the same meaning of temporal time and its cycles or ages, cannot extend beyond the fullness of times and the consummation of the ages. Time as we know it now is aionion. It is divided into cycles and is in constant change because of entropy within the universe. The life death and rebirth cycles are the essence of time in the cosmos. But when the fullness of times is come, death will be done away with, and all creation will be restored to harmony with God. At that time the aionion cycles will be completed and Gods plan and purpose for the aions(ages) will be done.
For now we see a in a darkened glass(mirror) knowing only in part ... But then we shall see as face to face ... knowing God even as we are now known by him.(1 Cor 13:12)
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-20-2009 at 07:55 PM..
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For weknow in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
At the fullness of times, the consummation of the ages, all that will remain is faith hope and love. Not death, not suffering, not fear ... Faith, hope, and love. And all creation will abide in them.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-20-2009 at 08:11 PM..
Aionios and aionion are adjective forms of aion and cannot carry a stronger meaning than the word from whence they are derived.
That is not true either, I am not sure where this grammar rule comes from but I have seen a few Christian Universalists refer to it and have yet to have one document it.
That is not true either, I am not sure where this grammar rule comes from but I have seen a few Christian Universalists refer to it and have yet to have one document it.
Superior is an adjective of Super.
Super and superior mean the same thing. Super as an adjective means excellent or great, superior does as well but only in comparison ... That is to say something is by comparison greater or more excellent ... etc.
I don't see how that breaks the rule. If i take another time reference like aion ... say a year ... And if i were to say something happens yearly i would obviously mean something happens every year. You wouldn't suppose by saying yearly that i mean every decade, or every century ... Would you? Now you could use a term in a way that it is not intended formally ... In the English language we do this all the time, its called slang. But the Koine Greek was a Legal language developed by Alexander the great for writing treaties and commanding armies composed of men from many different cultures. It was developed to be specific and to eliminate any potential for loopholes or confusion. It is not nearly so colorful or liberal a language as contemporary or even old English. To say that aion can mean everything that it has been translated into (at least in the KJV), and that its adjective forms mean something greater than the noun, is really "stretching it" in my opinion. Besides, i don't think that something as important as the the messages in bible would be communicated by its writers with anything less than exacting speech. If they did, proper exegesis would be nearly impossible.
I'm certainly not an authority ... I certainly may be wrong ... But i have not seen any compelling evidence to the contrary, especially once those evidences that are offered are thoroughly researched. I can say that the misstranslation of the word aion and its adjectives in many translations of the bible certainly does much to conceal the message of the plan and purpose of God in the ages. The mystery of the ages is nearly erased from the bible because of it. Knowing the proper translation of those words really reveals allot.
Look at these English words that were derived from the Greek word aion and its adjective form aionion ...
e·on also ae·on - The longest division of geologic time, containing two or more eras.
e·o·ni·an also ae·o·ni·an - Of, relating to, or constituting an eon.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-21-2009 at 01:35 AM..
That is not true either, I am not sure where this grammar rule comes from but I have seen a few Christian Universalists refer to it and have yet to have one document it.
aion and aionios NEVER mean everlasting
Is the following not sufficient documentaion for you Phazelwood?
If not, why not?
Here is why I think aion and aionios never mean eternal.
Notice in the following concordance that there are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense. The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Here is a "document" that responds to your point of view in detail. AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-21-2009 at 05:04 AM..
Reason: spelling
I have read many articles on these words, and I have seen the reference to this grammer rule. The words aion and aionios cannot be the only two words that this rule applies to.
"An adjective cannot have a greater meaning than the noun it was derived from"
Simply document where this rule officially exists and I will rethink my position. Should be pretty straight forward for someone to do.
Consistently examining the Biblical use of aion/aionios
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
I have read many articles on these words, and I have seen the reference to this grammer rule. The words aion and aionios cannot be the only two words that this rule applies to.
"An adjective cannot have a greater meaning than the noun it was derived from"
Simply document where this rule officially exists and I will rethink my position. Should be pretty straight forward for someone to do.
Phazelwood, I realize that some folks argue that while an aion (noun) is a time period with a conclusion, aionios (the adjective) means endless or eternal.
Yet other folks counter this by saying that an adjective cannot have a greater meaning (i.e. endless) than the noun it came from (i.e. an eon or age).
Quite frankly, I don't know where this rule comes from.
Pesonally I've always thought that it makes perfect sense and is a self-evident rule.
But anyway, for me the important thing is that you are right, so that even if we don't use this “linguistic” argument about why aionios cannot mean endless while aion means a time period with an end, we can still simply examine the use of both aion and aionios in all instances, and if one is consistent with how they handle these words in all instances within the New Testament I think they will clearly see that God has a plan to save all once the eons have concluded.
I agree with you Phazelwood, that we don’t need to hang our hat on any linguistic “law” that says the adjective cannot have greater meaning than the noun it came from in order to believe that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
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