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I think it's pretty clear that the vast majority of Human Beings can clearly point to what constitutes physical reality.
C'mon. Don't play semantic games here. If Jesus came back from the dead in a physical body, it means he's still alive. He's "here" somewhere. Unless you are claiming he has since died.
Listen...Many Literalists claim he resurrected in a physical body. THINK ABOUT THE IMPLICATION OF THAT. He's STILL ALIVE. PHYSICALLY. Somewhere "out there."
He's breathing air. He's eating. He's pooping. He gets heartburn.
Sorry to be so explicit, but the idea that Jesus is anything more than an ideal of the values of Christian thought is ludicrous. Christians should embrace his teachings - not cling to absurd "proofs" that somehow validate his physical existence. I actually think Christians who cling to these stories are unsure of their own faith.
They want "proof," not "truth."
No games, man consists of a dual nature, both physical and spirtual. Neither birth, nor death, nor resurrection happens without the two of them being involved. So no, never just physical except for the time the physical body rots in the grave until resurrection.
Jesus is alive, and has been seen by many people.
But his body is not just physical and limited like mortals are, it's a resurrected body with supernatural powers. He demonstrated not long after his resurrection that resurrected bodies can eat, but my understanding is that eating is a social event not a necessity because resurrected bodies can NEVER die, they are immortal, as will you one day be because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Yes, my doubting friend, Jesus is the Christ and he lives today. Of that I bear you my humble witness.
...Seriously, I want to know what the pros and cons are here. Suppose I believe the Resurrection is physical, then what?
What if I believe it is Literal, then what?
As I have said, then you MUST accept that Jesus is still HERE and NOW. PHYSICALLY! It's LITERAL, dont'cha know?
So where is he? Is he floating among the clouds? If so, why don't airline pilots see him? Is he living in an apartment in Paris? Is he orbiting Venus in a spaceship?
Again, I was slapped by an admin for being flippant about this, but I really, really want to know how intelligent human beings can simultaneously accept a literal resurrection and still not come to terms with its obvious implications.
Jesus physically, literally rose from the dead. Unless he died sometime between then and now, he's still alive somewhere. Literally. That's what you have to address.
The resurrected Christ went back to where he came from and makes his abode with God the Father. He continues to visit this planet and direct the affairs of his church, and one day will stay for a thousand years. At that time he will live in Jerusalem.
The resurrected Christ went back to where he came from and makes his abode with God the Father. He continues to visit this planet and direct the affairs of his church, and one day will stay for a thousand years. At that time he will live in Jerusalem.
No, I didn't miss your post. But you must be missing my point. Again and again.
Since this must be a physical location - by your own admission - where is it?
Are you claiming heaven is another planet? Is it in another solar system? Another galaxy? Are you actually claiming that God lives a physical existence on some faraway planet?
Remember, YOU claim it's a physical location. Which means WE can find out where it is.
Oh, and since you claim he comes back here to "direct the affairs of his church" he must appear as a person. Has anyone met him? Has CNN ever gotten an interview???
As I have said, then you MUST accept that Jesus is still HERE and NOW. PHYSICALLY! It's LITERAL, dont'cha know?
So where is he? Is he floating among the clouds? If so, why don't airline pilots see him? Is he living in an apartment in Paris? Is he orbiting Venus in a spaceship?
Again, I was slapped by an admin for being flippant about this, but I really, really want to know how intelligent human beings can simultaneously accept a literal resurrection and still not come to terms with its obvious implications.
Jesus physically, literally rose from the dead. Unless he died sometime between then and now, he's still alive somewhere. Literally. That's what you have to address.
I think you are correct. That we cannot say in all seriousness that Christ literally and physically rose from the dead.
I've brought up this passage before and it gets dissected but maybe you can tell me what you think it means:
Matthew 27:50-53 (New International Version)
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
So in verse 50 Jesus gives up his Spirit. He's pretty much dead. At that moment the temple was torn, rocks split and tombs broke open. The people come out of their tombs after Jesus' resurrection they appeared to many people.
Now we discussed this before in reference to the people raised being resuscitated or resurrected but what I'm looking at is that Jesus' spirit left his body. He is still on the cross when at that moment the tombs break open. Now either these raised people milled around for three days until after Christ's resurrection or this giving up the spirit WAS the resurrection.
He is still on the cross later that night when Joseph asks for his body from Pilate only then is it placed in the tomb and sealed.
So was his giving up of his spirit the resurrection or are these people that came out of the tombs walking around for three days before they are noticed?
No, I didn't miss your post. But you must be missing my point. Again and again.
Since this must be a physical location - by your own admission - where is it?
Are you claiming heaven is another planet? Is it in another solar system? Another galaxy? Are you actually claiming that God lives a physical existence on some faraway planet?
Remember, YOU claim it's a physical location. Which means WE can find out where it is.
You really are hung up on the word "physical", possibly it's the only state of existence that you can conceive of?
Yes, I am saying that the celestial world where God the Father lives is a very real place. But resurrected bodies and spirits are able to live in places where mortal bodies would not survive. Who knows, maybe to physical eyes and manufactured instruments that celestial world would be so bright we'd think it was a star/sun?? My understanding is that one day this very planet we stand on today will die and be resurrected as a celestial world, but I'm sure that sounds entirely esoteric and unbelievable to you.
All I know about location is what's written in the Book of Abraham about the celestial world our spirit bodies came from being located near a star called "Kolob". I couldn't point out that star in the heavens. My guess is that Abraham could do so, because God probably showed him. The ancients knew a whole lot about astronomy, they considered the lights in the sky to be a calendar of events to come.
I think you are correct. That we cannot say in all seriousness that Christ literally and physically rose from the dead.
I've brought up this passage before and it gets dissected but maybe you can tell me what you think it means:
Matthew 27:50-53 (New International Version)
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
So in verse 50 Jesus gives up his Spirit. He's pretty much dead. At that moment the temple was torn, rocks split and tombs broke open. The people come out of their tombs after Jesus' resurrection they appeared to many people.
Now we discussed this before in reference to the people raised being resuscitated or resurrected but what I'm looking at is that Jesus' spirit left his body. He is still on the cross when at that moment the tombs break open. Now either these raised people milled around for three days until after Christ's resurrection or this giving up the spirit WAS the resurrection.
He is still on the cross later that night when Joseph asks for his body from Pilate only then is it placed in the tomb and sealed.
So was his giving up of his spirit the resurrection or are these people that came out of the tombs walking around for three days before they are noticed?
What do you think?
My best guess is that those people did not come out of the graves until after Christ's resurrection because he was the very first to be resurrrected.
When he "gave up the spirit" he gave up his mortal life, his physical body died. Three days later that same physical body was again united with his spirit in the process known as "resurrection".
Yes we can "say in all seriousness that Christ literally and physically rose from the dead." Christ's literal resurrection was an enormously important part of his mission. Death had lost its sting, the grave was forced to yield up its dead, it's all over the bible, it really happened, he has been seen by many, his body felt, and it was tangible, but no longer limited as we are in the mortal state.
My best guess is that those people did not come out of the graves until after Christ's resurrection because he was the very first to be resurrrected.
When he "gave up the spirit" he gave up his mortal life, his physical body died. Three days later that same physical body was again united with his spirit in the process known as "resurrection".
Yes we can "say in all seriousness that Christ literally and physically rose from the dead." Christ's literal resurrection was an enormously important part of his mission. Death had lost its sting, the grave was forced to yield up its dead, it's all over the bible, it really happened, he has been seen by many, his body felt, and it was tangible, but no longer limited as we are in the mortal state.
I hear ya.
But nowhere in that verse is there a break or reason for a break in time between the graves opening and the resurrection.
Matthew 27:50-53 (New International Version)
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
See in 52 the tombs break and bodies are raised. Then 53 they came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they appeared to many....
So if they were raised at the same time as the curtain was torn and the tombs broke open (and at this point there is no reason to think otherwise) then in 53 when they come out of their graves (there is no reason for this to have happened any later than the curtain being torn according to the text) where did they go? You are saying that they were raised, came out of their tombs... then waited 3 days to go into the holy city?
But then isn't the author predicting the future? We see later that two men thought Jesus would escape death, but he rose. They were surprised. So how did this author know that ahead of time? Well it was written later and I suppose not then and there but...
still there is no reason not to think that Matthew indeed felt that Christ's resurrection (upon writing it later) and being filled with the Holy Spirit knew that the resurrection had taken place then while Christ still hung on the Cross. That the resurrection would take place in a twinkling of an eye... At that moment all those other things happened.
Did the bodies go somewhere for three days until after the tomb was opened or did Jesus say that after three days he would raise his body with the spirit that was resurrected?
But nowhere in that verse is there a break or reason for a break in time between the graves opening and the resurrection.
Matthew 27:50-53 (New International Version)
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
See in 52 the tombs break and bodies are raised. Then 53 they came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they appeared to many....
So if they were raised at the same time as the curtain was torn and the tombs broke open (and at this point there is no reason to think otherwise) then in 53 when they come out of their graves (there is no reason for this to have happened any later than the curtain being torn according to the text) where did they go? You are saying that they were raised, came out of their tombs... then waited 3 days to go into the holy city?
But then isn't the author predicting the future? We see later that two men thought Jesus would escape death, but he rose. They were surprised. So how did this author know that ahead of time? Well it was written later and I suppose not then and there but...
still there is no reason not to think that Matthew indeed felt that Christ's resurrection (upon writing it later) and being filled with the Holy Spirit knew that the resurrection had taken place then while Christ still hung on the Cross. That the resurrection would take place in a twinkling of an eye... At that moment all those other things happened.
Did the bodies go somewhere for three days until after the tomb was opened or did Jesus say that after three days he would raise his body with the spirit that was resurrected?
Troubling set of verses indeed.
The confusion is a typical example of running into problems when we limit the context to just the few documents that were placed by scholars into the volume we know as the Bible. (Some people tend to make the Bible an idol and worship it.) It is also, in my opinion a typical example of what scholars and others naturally do to twist/spin (I say that with respect) scriptures to fit their own package of beliefs.
Your version of the Bible apparently adds the words "at that moment" to what is written in the King James version which is by far my preference and the preference of the vast majority of people in the USA according to polls. (No modern day political correctness!)
Let's look at how the King James version reads:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(take a breath right here)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
50 Jesus gives up his life, his physical body dies.
51 In witness that a god has died, the temple veil rips, there's a massive earthquake (it was much greater in the Americas - many cities were destroyed by fire, sunk, immersed etc. and huge numbers of people were killed.)
52 Many saints of old who had completed their mortal mission and died are resurrected. They did not come out of the graves (i.e. were not resurrected) until sometime AFTER the Lord's resurrection (it's plainly spelled out in verse 53.)
53 The resurrected saints go into Jerusalem and appear to many people as a further witness that the resurrection is real.
But, that's arbitrary, we must keep in mind that almost two thousand years of time has passed since the original authors of the books of the bible wrote what they had to say, and much of it was written a long time after the event as I understand it. And, many fallible possibly (with respect for the work they did) conniving human hands were involved with translations, publishings, etc. before we get to read the words in our time.
That's another reason why it's wise to get the best possible CONTEXT available, and that includes for me the extrabiblical books of scripture found in the canon of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Here's what is recorded about that event in The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, a record of Joseph that was prophesied to be placed side by side with a record of Judah (the Bible) in these the fulness of times:
"And many graves shall be opened, and shall yield up many of their dead; and many saints shall appear unto many." Helaman 14: 25 (prophecy recorded about 6 B.C.)
"Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?
And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled. And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?
And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written. And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded." 3 Nephi 23: 9-13 (recorded about 34 A.D.)
I conclude that in and around Jerusalem and also in the Americas very soon after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which took place three days after his death on the cross, many people who were dead but had lived righteous lives during their mortal years were resurrected and appeared to witnesses.
My views on a couple of your other points:
1. Prophets of God do, of course predict the future, that's part of their job description.
2. Christ's resurrection did not take place in "the twinkling of an eye" it took place three days after his death. As I understand the matter, during the Millennium resurrection will literally take place in "the twinkling of an eye" with the matter concluded even before the physical body which has died falls to the ground.
3. Christ's physical body was not resurrected while it was on the cross, it was resurrected three days later while it lay in the tomb. (If you ever get a chance to go inside the "Garden Tomb" in Jerusalem (not the usual place they take tourists) do so, it's an absolutely incredible experience - especially when someone closes the door on you and leaves you inside. I am totally convinced that the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem is the place of the very first resurrection on this planet. The sign on the door of that tomb reads "He is not here, for he is risen." But sometimes he returns and visits!
Last edited by justamere10; 09-24-2009 at 09:07 AM..
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I am totally convinced that the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem is the place of the very first resurrection on this planet. The sign on the door of that tomb reads "He is not here, for he is risen." But sometimes he returns and visits!
