Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works (worship, verses)
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Just like trettep said "Do you think He lost One ?"
Do you really believe the Spirit of God within you is telling you that there are those who are beyond His reach ?.
Ever heard of justice?
God is our Heavenly Parent. Like a sincere earthly parent, He loves us immeasurably and wishes only happiness for us. But for our own learning and testing for greater or fewer responsibilities in the eternities He gives us the freedom to CHOOSE for ourselves from a spectrum of good and evil. And when we consistently choose evil and remain unrepentent, justice must eventually be exercised and we will reap the consequences of our actions. A loving earthly parent can continue to love a child who commited a heinous crime, but cannot keep that child from consequences such as prison.
God will not save us in our sins (no unclean thing can dwell with Him), but if we are repentent (and speedily forsake our sins when we fall), He will save us from our sins...
"Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?" Job 8: 3
"For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery." Alma 42: 24-26
Regarding this OSAS thing, it is my opinion that the principle of Justice in itself (along with a huge amount of other scripture) clearly demonstrates that notion to be false. If God is bound (as OSASers apparently believe) to save even the unrepentent sinner, then there would be no need for judgment or for Justice, and therefore neither of those two principles would likely be mentioned in the scriptures.
It is my belief that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ he now has the power to balance the scales of justice on behalf of fallen man, and will do so for those who sincerely repent of their sins and live reasonably selfless Christlike lives of love and service to others.
Those who remain rebellious throughout or towards the end of mortality and live lives devoted to unrighteousness will receive a lesser portion of the Lord's mercy and grace and the scales of justice will be unbalanced for them on their judgment day, their reward will be lessened. As I understand it, they will have to start eternal progression from a less than desirable starting point somewhere within God's three heavens (each with many mansions), and therefore may never have the opportunity to dwell where God Himself and Jesus Christ live.
One of the things that has not been thorougly discussed in this thread and that is of crucial importance in understanding each other is how each of us defines "salvation". That alone could bring us much closer to a reconciliation of beliefs or at least a better understanding of things that some of us view as even silly, while others base their eternal happiness upon them being true.
Another thing, closely related to the definition of "salvation", is what we expect heaven to be. As I understand it there are actually three kingdoms of glory, each with many mansions. So "salvation" doesn't necessarily have to be a black and white event in which the Lord examines on judgment day how we lived our lives and then points to either heaven or hell. I think it's actually much more reasonable (can I say humane) than that.
"In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." John 14: 2
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven." 2 Corinthians 12: 2
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." 1 Corinthians 15: 40-41
Amen Mike. How dare any of us think that we can leap frog over the finished work of Jesus Christ to get to God in heaven. The whole point is that God is going to get the Glory, NOT US. It's not even about us in the first place. That's why it only takes an act of God to save us and God the father does the drawing to Him, God the Son died on the cross, and God the Holy Spirit pricks our hearts to help us realize how much of a filthy rag we truly are, and that we are most definitely in need of a savior.
When you really think about it, could you imagine in heaven people going around and asking others how did you get into heaven? What did you do? Oh no that is not fair, I lived this type of life and didn't commit the top 10 sins, and you mean to tell me that you lived a worse life than me, and got into heaven? So, to me it makes perfect sense, since God is perfect for Him to save us ONLY BY GRACE, THROUGH OUR FAITH IN HIS SON. WE CAN'T WORK FOR IT, WE CAN'T PAY FOR IT, AND WE DEFINITELY CAN'T NEGOTIATE SALVATION EITHER.
You are right ON POINT; I HAVE BEEN BLESSED BY YOUR THREAD, and praise God that HE, through the Holy Spirit, guided you to the truth.
Thank you. It's nice to know that there Are people who oriented to the grace of God. As it says in Eph. 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9) NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, that no one may boast.''
And in Romans 4:2 'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. 3) For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'' 4) Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5) BUT TO THE ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS RECKONED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS..
Titus 3:5 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
For the benefit of those who insist on patting themselves on the back for their works of self righteousness, I have posted the above three passages. This is SCRIPTURE, this is the word of God. God rejects YOUR WORKS. God reqards your attempts to impress Him with your efforts to earn your salvation as USED MENSTRUAL RAGS. (Isa. 64:6)
Three passages by Paul that tell us that works have absolutely nothing to do with salvation. And who, you might ask, is Paul?
Go to Acts 26:14 This is the resurrected Christ who is speaking to Paul. ' Saul, Saul, why are you persecutng Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'' 15) ''And I said, 'Who art Thou Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16) But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also so the things in which I will appear to you; 17) delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18) to open their eyes so that they may turn from their darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, on order that they may recieve forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
What Paul wrote and what he spoke was given to him to speak by God.
Therefore, you people who insist on disregarding the word of the living God. WHO ARE YOU to ignore, to disregard, to make a lie of the Word of God.
Because you have depended on YOUR EFFORTS to secure your salvation instead of depending on the work of Christ on the Cross, YOU AREN'T EVEN SAVED. Since you are depending on your works to maintain your salvation, then odds are that you added your works to faith at the point that you initially believed in Christ.Therefore you didn't come to God through faith. You either depend on Christ for your salvation, or you depend on your own efforts. There is no compromise. There is no hedging your bets. It is one or the other. And only one of them, faith in Christ, will save you. Depending on your works instead of on Christ is the basis of your condemnation to the eternal lake of fire as per Revelation 20:11-15
And again. I will say it again for the benefit of those who have short memories. Your spiritual life AFTER salvation is distinct FROM your salvation. After you are saved through faith alone in Christ alone, God expects you to grow up spiritually. But if you don't, you do not lose your salvation. You will lose the eternal rewards and blessings that you otherwise would have had, but you will not lose your salvation.
Sin does not cause you to lose your salvation. EVERY SINGLE SIN IN THE HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE WAS PAID FOR BY CHRIST ON THE CROSS. That means that it is impossible to commit any sin for which Christ was not already judged. Including turning your back on Him after you have been saved. Hebrews 10:10 'By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11) And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12) but He (Jesus Christ), having offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR ALL TIME, sat down at the right hand of God.
Sin in the life of the believer is handled as a family matter.
Hebrews 12:15 ''My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord. Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6) For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.''
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-13-2010 at 11:21 AM..
God is our Heavenly Parent. Like a sincere earthly parent, He loves us immeasurably and wishes only happiness for us. But for our own learning and testing for greater or fewer responsibilities in the eternities He gives us the freedom to CHOOSE for ourselves from a spectrum of good and evil. And when we consistently choose evil and remain unrepentent, justice must eventually be exercised and we will reap the consequences of our actions. A loving earthly parent can continue to love a child who commited a heinous crime, but cannot keep that child from consequences such as prison.
God will not save us in our sins (no unclean thing can dwell with Him), but if we are repentent (and speedily forsake our sins when we fall), He will save us from our sins... "Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?" Job 8: 3
"For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery." Alma 42: 24-26
God will not save us in our sins ?????? He saved us in it, read the passage of scripture below, especially the bolded part.
Ever heard of Justice ? Yes the same kind of justice He manifested to you and the rest of us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Powerless to do what ? Answer save ourselves from the sin we were/are in.
When was the right time ? Answer when we were still poweless .
Thank God there is a But God thrown into this passage of scripture , and though we worthy of nothing but His wrath instead He demonstrated His love towards us the ungodly while we were at our worst .
What a Savior !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This is the good News .
But God who is rich in mercy, Hallelujah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, listening to orthodox christianity you would believe He is poor in mercy.
He does more than that. He provides regeneration, a new heart and a new spirit so that the man wants to choose the good.
Quote:
Unless I've misunderstood you, this seems problematic. It essentially makes the ability to obey contingent upon the creature's choice, but that seems circular. It's like saying, "The slave to sin can obey if he chooses to obey." If this were really how it was, though, nobody would be saved because our choices before regeneration will always be away from God and toward self and sin. The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God and cannot submit to the Law of God. What would make that mind set on the flesh decide to turn around and "choose to follow after Jesus"?
You must have overlooked the statement "God provides the grace"
Quote:
This seems odd. Please explain how God, being sovereign, could predestine the plan (assuming by "plan" you mean the carrying out of the plan in the sinner's actual life) without also predestining the outcome. Also, when Paul wrote that God predestined those whom he foreknew to be conformed to the image of his Son, he made no distinction between a plan and the outcome of the plan. The outcome is clearly stated in the word "conformed."
The plan that was predestined was that those who would receive eternal life would be conformed to the image of his Son, - that is they would walk as He walked.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Most who are called by God's sovereign grace choose to NOT walk as He walked.
HaHaHa!!! For someone to accuse Charles Stanley of anything other than Godliness is just downright ridiculous to say the least.. He is one of the most humble, gracious, Godly men of all time.
Raelyn - please read the post again. The only thing Stanley was accused of was what he himself said. Maybe I do not understand - If I quote a persons own words - how is that making an accusation other than "He said this!"
What you have to understand Finn is the OSAS crowd has to spin all the parables and passages that say thrown into the fire, placed in outer darkness, broken off and burned, etc...as losing rewards because if they actually used the meaning that Jesus taught it with, it would throw their doctrine right out the window.
I know what you mean Cristy - Where is the fire in heaven that people are tossed into for punishment? Perhaps they should become a Catholic and then they could say the verse is talking about purgatory.
Lets take a look what Jesus actually did say...
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
That is the fate of those who do not abide in Christ.
How is posting what someone wrote in a book gossip???? These are words that Charles Stanley, himself, wrote in a book that is sold to the public. Perhaps you should look up the word gossip and find out what it means because I believe you are a little confused.....what you're accusing Harold of is not gossip.
Strange isn't it... if I understand Raelyn correctly she is saying "Don't you dare tell anybody what Stanley really teaches" - I could be wrong....
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
Isa 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
Mic 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
Isa 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
Mic 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
HK
I agree that sin separates us from God as I am separated from God but those verses doesn't disprove O.S.A.S. or perseverence of the saints.
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In my Father's house are many mansions...
