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Well God is perfectand cannot error. He knew we would fall before He even created us. Didn't this ever occur to anyone?
Shame on all of you to think our Father is capable of tormenting souls forever. Could any of you toss one of your own kids into a blast furnace for not living up to your expectations??
Zero,
The above tow statements you made are in contradiction of each other.
If He already knew we would fall, which He did, then He allowed pain, suffering, death, etc on His children. Why wouldn't He allow the same for those who reject Him again? Once a fool, twice burned.
The above tow statements you made are in contradiction of each other.
If He already knew we would fall, which He did, then He allowed pain, suffering, death, etc on His children. Why wouldn't He allow the same for those who reject Him again? Once a fool, twice burned.
Why ?
Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Hebrews 2
14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death
No mention of being sent to eternal torment in either of these verses for rejecting him.
Why did Jesus tell James and John "they did not know what spirit they they were of" when they wanted to call fire down from heaven on those who rejected his message ?
Because he came to save life not destroy it.
I am sure you who believe in etrnal torment think God is playing games with us.
Latte.....I truly pray that you find God's Divine Love and I shall leave it at that. I do not wish to battle with you here in this negativity.
Peace.
Well SisterKat......Your god and its divine love, peace, is not the God of the Scripture......the Mighty God of all Creation! So therefore I will never know it or desire it, let alone pray to it.
The god you so talk about and using his new age philosophy is nothing but the father of lies who blinds this world in its sin of unbelief from the truth of God. This god you speak so highly of is a deceptive god, creating and giving those the desire to walk in rebellion, against God's written word.
This is what Jesus warned us about. And yes, he comes in a false light, trying to duplicate, manifest the light of Jesus Christ! Yet, those who are born again, born of the Spirit of God can discern this false light and its lies that tries to manifest itself to be the truth of God's written word.
When a born again, Spirit filled child of God speaks against false teaching it will be negative to those who walks blindly in their darkness because the true light of Christ exposes the deeds of those who walks in false teaching and they will not be in agreement with those who walk in the Spirit and yet those who walk in this darkness will continue to walk in defiance, rebelling against God, speaking their father's lies.
This false teaching of this thread.....and its imaginations is nothing but the natural mind which can not receive the things of God....but they will try their best to reason it away with the delusion that God has given them over too. Why? Because they have exchanged the truth God's righteousness for the lies of the enemy of their soul.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
It seems many people here seem to think the Lake of Fire is nothing more than an eternal torture chamber, designed to inflict as much pain as possible, whether that be physical or spiritual pain.
Why would God do such a thing?
Especially since we know God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-wise, and all-loving... how does a giant eternal torture chamber seem like a reasonable thing to create? Reason would suggest to me that eternal torture is not a loving thing.
Some would say that we cannot understand the ways of God... therefore eternal torture is good. Huh?
Others simply delight in the idea of their enemies being tortured forever, and they have delighted in teaching this to the world. But God does not delight in the death of the wicked... God does not delight in evil.
It seems to me the idea of eternal torture for any reason is pure evil at its most base form. In that sense I can understand why one would conclude annihilation as a reasonable alternative.
Satan is still telling the same lie through many who hold to his false teachings....it is sad that some have given themselves over to be instruments of this lie...."You shall surely not die" !! He has blinded their minds and hearts in their rebellion against God's Truth.
Especially the truth of those who do not repent of their sin, they will be separated from God for all eternity....and thrown into the deepest darkness of hell. A place that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because they loved their darkness of their sin above almight God !!
There is no such thing as all will be one, one day !! That God is going to reconcile all, especially those who are God haters! It is a lie from the father of lies....And the word of God speaks to us of this truth.
Many have brought forth and shared through the Spirit of God with many who hold to false teachings, yet, they defy Him and continue to rebel against the Holy Spirit, grieving Him deeply.
Some have even gone as far as to say those who have the witness of God's Spirit that changed their lives into the hope of salvation given to them through Jesus Christ, because they believed God.....and calling that what the Holy Spirit has done in that life is a lie, calling all the Spirit' work who has taught them, guided them, delivered them, cleansed them, healed them, and that they were force fed the traditions of man in their lives when it has been the work of God's Holy Spirit in that life....
They can not even recognize Him, God's Spirit, and say....they know what spirit that person is of and the fruit of those people.... will if they knew the Spirit of God, they would have recognized Him....they denied and defy Him the Living God in that life, calling Him (the Holy Spirit) the traditions of men and His work the fruit and spirit of demons.....
So if I were you....I would really think your position through....in that god you worship....because it is not the God of truth written in the word....the Bible !!! And I do know you do not believe in the Bible !!
The Bible is God's breath which He breathes and pour's into that believer giving them the faith to believe every written word, written and inspired by God through the hands of men, His disciples !!
He also gives the testimony of His word into the hearts of those who will believe, baptizing and sealing them in His Spirit, He is our Helper, bringing God's word to our remembrance, to teach, guide, protect, provide every need of the child of God... without Him we are nothing !! Amen !!
And He the Holy Spirit is the One that those who are following after false teaching are lacking Him in their lives, you can read it in their post, the Spirit of God is not there....because He will not lead anyone away from that which is written in the word.
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 02-11-2010 at 12:26 PM..
Well SisterKat......Your god and its divine love, peace, is not the God of the Scripture......the Mighty God of all Creation! So therefore I will never know it or desire it, let alone pray to it.
The god you so talk about and using his new age philosophy is nothing but the father of lies who blinds this world in its sin of unbelief from the truth of God. This god you speak so highly of is a deceptive god, creating and giving those the desire to walk in rebellion, against God's written word.
This is what Jesus warned us about. And yes, he comes in a false light, trying to duplicate, manifest the light of Jesus Christ! Yet, those who are born again, born of the Spirit of God can discern this false light and its lies that tries to manifest itself to be the truth of God's written word.
When a born again, Spirit filled child of God speaks against false teaching it will be negative to those who walks blindly in their darkness because the true light of Christ exposes the deeds of those who walks in false teaching and they will not be in agreement with those who walk in the Spirit and yet those who walk in this darkness will continue to walk in defiance, rebelling against God, speaking their father's lies.
This false teaching of this thread.....and its imaginations is nothing but the natural mind which can not receive the things of God....but they will try their best to reason it away with the delusion that God has given them over too. Why? Because they have exchanged the truth God's righteousness for the lies of the enemy of their soul.....
Satan is still telling the same lie through many who hold to his false teachings....it is sad that some have given themselves over to be instruments of this lie...."You shall surely not die" !! He has blinded their minds and hearts in their rebellion against God's Truth.
Especially the truth of those who do not repent of their sin, they will be separated from God for all eternity....and thrown into the deepest darkness of hell. A place that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because they loved their darkness of their sin above almight God !!
There is no such thing as all will be one, one day !! That God is going to reconcile all, especially those who are God haters! It is a lie from the father of lies....And the word of God speaks to us of this truth.
Many have brought forth and shared through the Spirit of God with many who hold to false teachings, yet, they defy Him and continue to rebel against the Holy Spirit, grieving Him deeply.
Some have even gone as far as to say those who have the witness of God's Spirit that changed their lives into the hope of salvation given to them through Jesus Christ, because they believed God.....and calling that what the Holy Spirit has done in that life is a lie, calling all the Spirit' work who has taught them, guided them, delivered them, cleansed them, healed them, and that they were force fed the traditions of man in their lives when it has been the work of God's Holy Spirit in that life....
They can not even recognize Him, God's Spirit, and say....they know what spirit that person is of and the fruit of those people.... will if they knew the Spirit of God, they would have recognized Him....they denied and defy Him the Living God in that life, calling Him (the Holy Spirit) the traditions of men and His work the fruit and spirit of demons.....
So if I were you....I would really think your position through....in that god you worship....because it is not the God of truth written in the word....the Bible !!! And I do know you do not believe in the Bible !!
The Bible is God's breath which He breathes and pour's into that believer giving them the faith to believe every written word, written and inspired by God through the hands of men, His disciples !!
He also gives the testimony of His word into the hearts of those who will believe, baptizing and sealing them in His Spirit, He is our Helper, bringing God's word to our remembrance, to teach, guide, protect, provide every need of the child of God... without Him we are nothing !! Amen !!
And He the Holy Spirit is the One that those who are following after false teaching are lacking Him in their lives, you can read it in their post, the Spirit of God is not there....
Your ignorance about the nature of your God is forgivable. I am sure you will realize that the God you imagine is not the God of love but wrath.
Did you realize that Jesus died for all men? If all men are not saved by that action then Jesus died for nothing. There was salvation to the few available before Jesus died.. so what do you suppose Jesus died for then? What was the difference? So a few MORE could be saved? So hell would be full and heaven empty?
many have brought up the fact that if more are in hell than heaven then your devil wins... not God.. How do you reconcile that with your belief in an all powerful God?
Latte'Chic - keep standing tall for Jehovah God! His Word endures forever. The God of the Bible is a God of great love and great wrath; the obedient walk in His love and mercy; the disobedient will experience hell if they die in their sins.
As for this god that is spoken of in this thread, it sounds familiar.
1 Kings 18
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
Your ignorance about the nature of your God is forgivable. I am sure you will realize that the God you imagine is not the God of love but wrath.
Did you realize that Jesus died for all men? If all men are not saved by that action then Jesus died for nothing. There was salvation to the few available before Jesus died.. so what do you suppose Jesus died for then? What was the difference? So a few MORE could be saved? So hell would be full and heaven empty?
many have brought up the fact that if more are in hell than heaven then your devil wins... not God.. How do you reconcile that with your belief in an all powerful God?
Well Katjonjj.....my God and His written word is all powerful !! You can accepted it or call it whatever your little heart desires and continue to defy it all you want....that is up to you ! It is God you will answer to one day....not me !!
I will stand in the truth of God's word with all the courage, strength, that God gives me....never turning to the spirit of fear or dismay, for the Lord my God is with me.....and the enemy can try to throw at me all he may and even with those he uses to come and be the instrument of his lies !! For my God said, He is with me !!
For He that is in me is stronger then He that is in the world.
For the gates of hell shall not prevail against the word of God. And one day the testimony of the people of God will be revealed in all God's glory....through His Son, Jesus Christ, Hallelujah !!!
So go and disbute your rebellion with someone else....because you will get nowhere with me !!
I do know with all my heart and believe, trust, the very word of the Living God ! That the enemy of the soul is trying to deceive many....he can not deceive my heart to turn from God's righteousness, to the lies, especially the lie of taste and see "you shall not surely die" !!!
I do know that sin of unbelief....it kills, steals, and destroys one's soul from God for all eternity, that many have fallen for and continue in denying God's truth!!
Perhaps many misunderstand the purpose of God’s judgments, and consequently, misrepresents His character to the world.
Instead of viewing all of God’s judgments and punishments from the perspective of the “spiritual man,” Christians have instead interpreted them out of the “natural man”—a man desiring payback against his enemies.
Most of us have been taught that the “natural man” spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 applies only to unredeemed man, however, Christians are just as capable of thinking and walking in the natural (carnal) realm. One needs only to look at the current state of the church with all of its division and strife to see that this is true. This is why Paul encourages us to “renew our minds” and to “walk in the Spirit.” It is for this very reason why I believe the Church has held on to false doctrine of eternal punishment. The “natural man” simply cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and so it is this same natural man who has ruled over the “new man” and inhibits us from seeing the true purpose for God’s judgments.
There is a very simple explanation to what appears to be an irreconcilable dilemma, which “if we have ears to hear,” will explain how God’s love and His judgments perfectly compliment each other.
So when we pray to God for his Love and the Holy Spirit delivers – this opens the door to the ears of the spirit and when the spirit leads you to God and God returns with his wonderful deliverance of Love….. then one finds the answers.
This is not of Satan my dear friend….. this is a beautiful gift from God J that I pray for every soul to experience.
So while I believe that we shall reap what we sow - I do not believe that our Father would condemn a sole for all eternity. They may not all enter the Kingdom but there will be no ever lasting hell, fire & brimstone.
Well Katjonjj.....my God and His written word is all powerful !! You can accepted it or call it whatever your little heart desires and continue to defy it all you want....that is up to you ! It is God you will answer to one day....not me !!
I will stand in the truth of God's word with all the courage, strength, that God gives me....never turning to the spirit of fear or dismay, for the Lord my God is with me.....and the enemy can try to throw at me all he may and even with those he uses to come and be the instrument of his lies !! For my God said, He is with me !!
For He that is in me is stronger then He that is in the world.
For the gates of hell shall not prevail against the word of God. And one day the testimony of the people of God will be revealed in all God's glory....through His Son, Jesus Christ, Hallelujah !!!
So go and disbute your rebellion with someone else....because you will get nowhere with me !!
I do know with all my heart and believe, trust, the very word of the Living God ! That the enemy of the soul is trying to deceive many....he can not deceive my heart to turn from God's righteousness, to the lies, especially the lie of taste and see "you shall not surely die" !!!
I do know that sin of unbelief....it kills, steals, and destroys one's soul from God for all eternity, that many have fallen for and continue in denying God's truth!!
Standing before God I will state: I knew you were the God of love and infinite compassion for my fellow man.
Will you state: What about HELL? I worked hard to be good and get to heaven so why are they here when they did no work at all?
Similar to the parable:
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard Matt. 20:1-16“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
If God is such a tyrant that he will not forgive as you state then I guess Jesus did not represent God because here we see that all the workers were equal even though the amount of work they did was different. Because God's will is that all come to him, whether in the first hour or the eleventh.
So your perception of a loving but wrathful God goes against this scripture and others.
Let me ask you this: If there is no hell will you feel the way the first hour workers felt? or will you rejoice that no one will be in a burning torture chamber?
Also you state the sin of unbelief yet scripture states various times that unbelief is highly rectifiable. Saul/Paul killed many in his unbelief yet God targeted him for a good reason.. Those who sin the most need the most grace and are truly a show of God's love and grace.
Throwing unbelievers in hell does nothing to show God's grace and love... Think about it.
Standing before God I will state: I knew you were the God of love and infinite compassion for my fellow man.
Ezekiel 3
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Ezekiel 3
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Notice that this is the OT... AND this passage is about physical life and death not after life and after death. It's about warning people to live a holy life... Have you ever met a drug addict and told them that if they didn't quit using they would surely DIE. or did you tell them that they are destined for hell?
They will surely die that is scriptural.. it is NOT scriptural that they are destined for hell. So in telling someone they are going to hell you are bearing false witness. Wouldn't you say?
Everyone who dies in their sin pays the wages for sin... DEATH
Let me know if you find the passage that states you should warn people they will burn forever in hell if they don't turn from their wicked ways.
The bible is consistent. If you live your life in sin you will physically die. What is after that?
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will if they knew the Spirit of God, they would have recognized Him....they denied and defy Him the Living God in that life, calling Him (the Holy Spirit) the traditions of men and His work the fruit and spirit of demons.....
