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Originally Posted by Eusebius Look n any good instruction book on the Greek language like that by Mounce. He will tell you what the role of the adjective is.
Give me one adjective in a properly translated Bible that does not pertain to the noun from which it is derived.
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks
That sounds like an excercise for you, since I have already done this and continue to do so.
Look smart arse, I already did my exercises. Had you actually done yours you would know that Mounce is correct.
Now then, quit going off on tangents. Give me one adjective in a properly translated Bible that shows that that adjective does not pertain to the noun from which it is derived.
Look smart arse, I already did my exercises. Had you actually done yours you would know that Mounce is correct.
Now then, quit going off on tangents. Give me one adjective in a properly translated Bible that shows that that adjective does not pertain to the noun from which it is derived.
When you can refrain from swearing at me on a Christian forum, I will engage with you, but IMO, you can forget about it. And secondly, when did I ever say that it didn't?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 03-03-2010 at 04:33 AM..
When you can refrain from swearing at me on a Christian forum, I will engage with you, but IMO, you can forget about it.
When you can refrain from demeaning talk to everyone that does not agree with you on a Christian forum, I will engage with you, but IMO, you can forget about it, young man.
P.S. I knew you couldn't back up your untennable position that an adjective can be greater than the noun it is derived from in the Scriptures. You make these brash statements but we are on to you. You simply cannot back up what you say. You are a flimflam artist.
When you can refrain from demeaning talk to everyone that does not agree with you on a Christian forum, I will engage with you, but IMO, you can forget about it, young man.
P.S. I knew you couldn't back up your untennable position that an adjective can be greater than the noun it is derived from in the Scriptures. You make these brash statements but we are on to you. You simply cannot back up what you say. You are a flimflam artist.
LOL...you are full of it Eusebius. Here is a little lesson for you:
The problem with your paradigm, I am a Preterist, and we are in the Age to Come, and His purpose has been completed. He has already fulfilled the New Creation in Christ, which upon profession of faith, one is born again into the New Creation, which throws your entire paradigm, down the toilet.
Secondly, the noun aion does not always mean an indeterminate period of time, especially when used in an idiomatic expression.
The adjective "aionios" always means "everlasting" or "perpetual."
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the adjectival form of a word means exactly the same as its nominal cognate.
I already addressed this, complete with lexical references in the past. Where are your sources? Mounce LOL! And I don't mean a website like Tentmaker and Saviour of All jargon filled heresies, whose owners has no formal Greek training. I mean textbook references written by scholars in their field as I have provided, extensively, other than your little Unie idol Mounce.
Once again, Matthew 25:46 clearly stands against your assertions. If the "punishment" mentioned in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
One verse, destroys everything...and I can go on and on, but why bother? You are stubborn and rude, and you can't debate without swearing. You think I am demeaning? Maybe you should begin the debate nicely, and others will follow suit. Take your own medicine. It isn't my fault people personalize things when I attack their views. We are debating.
Believe me, the Mods watch me closely....VERY CLOSELY, and my posts would have been snipped if they felt I was personally attacking. They are still up, so it appears I was only attacking the views, and voila! You and others attack me personally....sound familiar? You should take a step back....if you can't take it, why put it out?
Join a Univerlalist forum where you can all hold hands and play songs together and sing Satan is going to be redeemed in the end! I really don't care. But when you come on a Christianity forum and spread lies such as that one, I will be right on your toes, correcting your warped views....AIONIOS.
I am on to you....rewriter of the word of God. Deal with it....forever, eternally, AIONIOS.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 03-03-2010 at 04:54 AM..
Really? I have already presented this case over and over again. I don't really like repeating myself, so it isn't a challenge for me at all, since I have already completed it.
Secondly, your understanding of AIONIOS, being that ALWAYS is correct. I never disagreed with you there. The context of AIOINIOS in the case of Resurrection in Matt, begins at the point of resurrection, not prior to, but at it's point. What is the resurrection Trettep?
Becoming born again. Right now, I have AIONIOS life, because I accepted Christ, I believe in Him and who He is, and He told me I will live eternally.
For the rebellious sinner, his resurrection happens at death, and he feels that sting of it, and he inherits AIONIOS damnation.
Remember, it is the context of AIONIOS that defines it, not just the word itself. Any Greek scholar will tell you that.
Find my thread Calling all UR #2, and read it again. I have sourced many individuals in that analysis, and I suggest stdying them at great lengths, as I have.
sciotamicks, you said that CONTEXT defines if aionios and that is NOT the case. AIONIOS is ALWAYS the same. And no NOT any Greek scholar will tell me that. I have talked to Ancient Bible Greek Professors on the subject of aionios and have been told that aionios does NOT mean eternal. So again, I have not found anywhere that my understanding of aionios has been challenged.
LOL...this ordinance in Exodus, was the "blood on the door"....the passover. An ordinance that continued forever....even though interrupted, but still picked back up, and continued on.
Christ fulfilled it, and it still continues onward. You are wrong once again.
sciotamicks, it really shows how ignorant you are about the scriptures. Among other things the Jews had to do this every passover:
Leviticus 23:5-8 CLV In the first month on the fourteenth day of the
month between the evening hours, is the passover to Yahweh. (6) And
on the fifteenth day of this month is the celebration of unleavened cakes
to Yahweh. Seven days shall you eat unleavened cakes. (7) On the first
day you shall come to have a holy meeting, when you shall do no
occupational work at all. (8) And you shall bring near a fire offering to Yahweh seven days. On the seventh day is a holy meeting, when you
shall do no occupational work at all.
They had to go to the temple in Jerusalem to bring the fire offering. Since the temple was destroyed at least twice and Israel was held captive and removed from their land, how could they bring the fire offering to Yahweh?
So, When the pronouncement was made in Exodus
Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever - αἰώνιον.
This proves αἰώνιον cannot possibly mean "eternal." But it was pertaining to "an ever."
LOL...you are full of it Eusebius. Here is a little lesson for you:
The problem with your paradigm, I am a Preterist
That's your problem, not mine. I can't help everyone here who is deceived.
Quote:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
One verse, destroys everything...
Not quite. "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
Both the punishment of the nations and the blessings of the nations for how they treated Christ's brethren (not for if they believed in Jesus or not) is of the same duration . . . pertaining to the eon. So it does destroy everything . . . everything of your Preterist LOL paradigm.
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and I can go on and on, but why bother? You are stubborn and rude, and you can't debate without swearing.
And I can go on and on, but why bother? You are stubborn and rude to everyone who does not agree with you. Of course I can debate without swearing. The only time I swore (according to you) was calling you a "smart arse" once. So you lie when you say I can't debate without swearing. You are a liar and a bully. It is what you are. You come across as a smart arse to everyone who doesn't agree with you telling them all sorts of derrogatory remarks as if you are some super hot theologian. You are a bully and nothing more who likes to beat up on people you don't agree with. You are a bully.
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You think I am demeaning? Maybe you should begin the debate nicely, and others will follow suit. Take your own medicine. It isn't my fault people personalize things when I attack their views. We are debating.
Which proves you have been demeaning. You take your own medicine with a teaspooon of sugar. I don't care if you attack my views but you get personal with everyone you don't agree with. You demean them.
Quote:
Believe me, the Mods watch me closely....VERY CLOSELY, and my posts would have been snipped if they felt I was personally attacking. They are still up, so it appears I was only attacking the views, and voila! You and others attack me personally....sound familiar? You should take a step back....if you can't take it, why put it out?
Obviously no one complained of your verbal abuse. Quit attacking people who don't agree with you.
Once again, Matthew 25:46 clearly stands against your assertions. If the "punishment" mentioned in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
this is very old argument that dates back to Augustine
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If we can prove from the Bible, in a way that the common man from among the people will understand that the great Augustine and all that use the same argument became victim of a fallacy, then is this biggest stumbling block and most popular argument against the belief that God is indeed the Savior of all men refuted for every straight thinking man.
We forbear from doing a scholarly examination and want to speak to the common people that only know and accept the Scripture. How do we want to prove that Augustine was wrong?
He said: "If the words talking about the doom of the wicked don’t mean endless duration, then the life and the bliss of the saved have also no endless duration."
If it‘s now possible to demonstrate that the Scripture obviously used the words for "eternal" and "eternity" in the same sentence once applied to something that by its nature can only thought to be infinite and the other time on something that by its nature can never be thought infinite, then Augustine’s conclusion can only be considered as unscriptural.
Let’s look upon two Bible words, the one is written in Romans 16:25-26, …according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal (aiōnios) times, but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōnios) God…
There is no need for scholarliness to recognize that times in their nature can never be infinite or eternal, but they are obvious with the same word designated that is used to denote the eternal God. On the other hand no one needs to prove that God in his nature can only thought of being infinite.
If Augustine had used the same logic here as in Matthew 25:46, then he could have said, if the times called eternal here were not infinite - then God called eternal here is not infinite too - a blatant fallacy.
We have a similar example in Titus 1:2 (also 2Tim 1:9) …on hope of eternal (aiōnios) life which the God who does not lie promised before eternal (aiōnios) times… If there is a linguistic term that is fundamentally different from infinity, then it is "time" or "times". Nevertheless are they called "eternal" (aiōnios), a striking proof that this adjective itself is not suitable to denote infinity.
All adjectives that refer to God and His life get their true meaning from there, but not the way round. Wherever the word translated "eternal" (Greek: aiōnios - aeonian or age-long), refers to creature, men or mere human conditions or circumstances it never has the sense of infinity cause nothing creatural can be thought of being infinite, unless it partook in the divine nature of divine life and entity.
Our appreciated brother and friend in the adversarial camp concludes now from Augustine’s words: "Nobody has proved yet, that the Scriptures doesn’t teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked."
After our examination we just want to answer in similar words:
Nobody has sure proved yet, that the words of the Bible teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked.
Also this proof will never be adduced as long the Scripture alone and not human philosophy has to determine which sense the word translated with "eternal" has.
As long as this proof can’t be adduced without any gap, it is at least very bold to forbid the ordinary children of God believing their heavenly God and Father on his word, that He was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2Co 5:19) and that God will be all in all (1Co 15:28).
Once again, Matthew 25:46 clearly stands against your assertions. If the "punishment" mentioned in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
But it is true that if the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life.
The punishment of those nations that mistreated Christ's brethren is not eternal.
The life the NATIONS that treated Christ's brethren properly is not eternal.
Nations don't get eternal life because of how they treated Christ's brethren.
Nations don't get eternal chastening because of how they treated Christ's brethren.
Can you imagine going over to Israel, handing a Jew a cup of water and later Jesus telling you: "Because you gave one of my brethren a cup of water you get eternal life!"
But Jesus, I never believed in you!
Jesus: Doesn't matter.
But I was a whoremonger.
Jesus: Doesn't matter.
But I was a blasphemer!
Jesus: Doesn't matter.
But I was a Preterist!
Jesus: Oh, well now that does change things!
Both the punishment and the life those NATIONS enjoy is eonian which is pertaining to the eon.
Last edited by Eusebius; 03-03-2010 at 07:48 AM..
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