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Oh really? So Jim Crow, slavery and tobacco plantations do not make a place southern? Mmmkay.
This is true. That's why most people consider Mississippi the Deep South. Maryland was just considered the South.
Baltimore was a large, dense, industrial city with rowhouses back in 1939 when "Maryland, My Maryland" was adopted as the state song. And it was a southern city. Rowhouses and heavy industry do not make a place "unsouthern." All the evidence you cite for Baltimore not being southern (industry, rowhouses, etc.) it had back when it was voting for secession candidates and forcing blacks to use separate facilities. There's a whole social/cultural aspect you seem unwilling to confront here.
And Kurath clearly identified Baltimore as having a variant of the Virginia Piedmont dialect. That's southern, mang.
Slavery and tobacco plantations were pre Civil War. All of the "border states" contained elements of Southern culture and many favored Jim Crow. This did NOT make them Southern states, as the Civil War proved them to be anything but. Jim Crow existed in Kansas and Missouri yet I don't hear you branding those places the South. Baltimore's industry was identical to northern cities like it, specifically Philadelphia. Kurath's dialect study came out of the 1950s, and placed both Baltimore and DC both roughly right on the lines of different dialects. Modern maps like the 1997 study by the University of Pennsylvania lump Baltimore decisively above that line. So basically, anything you say is subjective and Baltimore and Maryland are not Southern from a modern standpoint? MMMMMMKAY LITTLE BUDDY? YOU GONNA CRY? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
How much difference these days are there between different "ethnic" or "non-ethnic" whites these days? There's some, but it's minor IMO compared to 40 years ago. I'd consider Italian-American as much "regular whites" as "WASPs". The latter was much less common than the former back home anyway, so perhaps less regular.
I think this also depends on their level of education and socioeconomic standing. I mean, how do you think I speak and dress?
I think this also depends on their level of education and socioeconomic standing. I mean, how do you think I speak and dress?
I see you're ignoring me. I guess that means I win by default. Another point to nlst. Stick to territory you know, like New York, and quit trying to speak for the people of Maryland. You're bad at it.
I think the southerness would stick out more than the traits you've identified. I mean, why would these other things stick out when nearly all Americans are familar with southern accents?
Also, I think there are few Philadelphians whose speech possesses most of those things. You come across plenty of New Yorkers who exhibit all of the characteristics of the New York accent, but the "Philly accent" is harder to pin down. There's really no one person you can point to and say, "Ah, that's quintessentially Philadelphia."
I personally do not have any type of accent (or so I believe). And I've always considered Philly to be the most neutral of northeastern cities in this regard.
Just curious, where did you grow up? I always thought Philly sounded kinda neutral too, but I grew up with tons of family from there, so it never sounded odd to me.
Someone from Baltimore, despite having southern influences on their accent, sounds more like someone from Philly, than someone from Georgia IMO. Baltimore is not a prototypical southern US accent (if there is such a thing). And you're right there's not just ONE Philly accent, but several. Same for Baltimore, New York, various regions of the South, and other places. Your social class, ethnicity, etc. weigh in quite a bit. And the traits I posted before aren't used by all, but they're pretty common in each region.
If you think of accents on the east coast transitioning from proto-northeastern (whatever that is) to proto-southern (whatever that is) along the coastline in a color gradient. Think of the NE as 100% (black) and SE as 0% (white), Philly might be 55% gray and Baltimore 45% gray. Each leans a bit toward the other side, but they're really pretty close if you take a step back and look at the grand scheme of things.
IDK, maybe being from the Northeast (presumably), you think Baltimore just sounds like any old southern accent. Being from the south myself, Baltimore doesn't sound all that southern to me. And its links to Phillyspeak are one reason.
Just curious, where did you grow up? I always thought Philly sounded kinda neutral too, but I grew up with tons of family from there, so it never sounded odd to me.
Germantown. The accent just doesn't sound neutral. It is neutral. That's because we listened to New Yorkers and Bostonians and heard how ridiculous they sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lammius
Someone from Baltimore, despite having southern influences on their accent, sounds more like someone from Philly, than someone from Georgia IMO.
But that's obvious. Why is the Deep South always used as a benchmark whenever something is compared to the South? "Richmond may be the South, but it's NOT Tupelo, Mississippi!!!" As if there's no middle ground between Natchez and Boston. Funny you never hear anyone say, "Wilmington may be the Northeast, but it is NOT anything like New York." Why do you suppose that is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lammius
IDK, maybe being from the Northeast (presumably), you think Baltimore just sounds like any old southern accent. Being from the south myself, Baltimore doesn't sound all that southern to me. And its links to Phillyspeak are one reason.
Baltimore experienced a mass influx of white southerners from West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee and North Carolina during the 1940s and 50s. How do you expect them to sound?
Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-16-2013 at 01:39 PM..
I see you think you're better than linguists at the University of Pennsylvania. Baltimore does not have Southern speech patterns. Baltimore being a Southern city for most of its history? Maybe up to the Civil War...during the Great Migration that certainly changed. The Baltimore accent is not Southern sounding to my ears, nor is it southern sounding to professional linguists. So however Southern sounding you think it is, you're wrong. You're not a professional linguist.
Back in 1969 (yes, I know, 44 years ago), my parents moved to Frederick, MD from Pennsylvania. When the movers arrived, they sounded sooo southern. After a while there, the natives didn't sound southern any more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
This feature is distinctive of the coastal Northeast southward. Article claims up to Baltimore. It's not that well known, but if you listen to someone's speech, it's very obvious if someone has it or not.
The article looked interesting, but since I have exactly zero linguistics education, I couldn't figure out what it was saying. Can you give some examples of these "a" words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
How much difference these days are there between different "ethnic" or "non-ethnic" whites these days? There's some, but it's minor IMO compared to 40 years ago. I'd consider Italian-American as much "regular whites" as "WASPs". The latter was much less common than the former back home anyway, so perhaps less regular.
Everyone is some kind of ethnic. (Agreeing with you.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nlst
Slavery and tobacco plantations were pre Civil War. All of the "border states" contained elements of Southern culture and many favored Jim Crow. This did NOT make them Southern states, as the Civil War proved them to be anything but. Jim Crow existed in Kansas and Missouri yet I don't hear you branding those places the South. Baltimore's industry was identical to northern cities like it, specifically Philadelphia. Kurath's dialect study came out of the 1950s, and placed both Baltimore and DC both roughly right on the lines of different dialects. Modern maps like the 1997 study by the University of Pennsylvania lump Baltimore decisively above that line. So basically, anything you say is subjective and Baltimore and Maryland are not Southern from a modern standpoint? MMMMMMKAY LITTLE BUDDY? YOU GONNA CRY? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Maybe not Kansas, but I grew up thinking Missouri was southern. Ever read "Huck Finn"? MO was a slave state. I was surprised to find out they consider themselves midwesterners.
According to Nate Silver, Pennsylvania is by far more similar to Ohio than it is to Maryland. Maryland appears to be kind of a unique state, although interestingly enough, both Pennsylvania and Maryland are similar to Delaware but not really to each other.
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