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There's median family income, which includes households of at least two. I've seen median income reported more on the census, the census also shows breakdowns by income brackets.
True, but the median family income doesn't reveal what the median income is for dual-income families, just all families.
It is largely bilingual but without speaking French somewhat fluently, it is still hard. It is like only speaking Spanish in LA.
This is almost true except it doesn't capture the class dynamic of English and French in Montreal at all. How many top rated Spanish language universities are located in LA for instance?
Possibly, but you also have to considered Canadians are taxed at a much higher rate than we are. I worked for an international corporation back in the 90's. Our Candian counter parts in Montreal were paid a slightly higher gross salary for the same position and the reason being was due to the higher taxes. In addition the Canadian dollar was worth less at that time, but I think now we are almost even. It pretty much even out after taxes in accordance to matching the value of the American dollar. I'm not sure how it works now, but that was the case back in 1996.
period.
Oh yeah but Canadians also get stuff back for the higher taxes.. plus there is less income inequality so you have this redistribution of wealth to a greater degree.. Which system is better is really what side of the fence you are perched on and what your values are..
Montreal has plenty of U.S plates on its streets enjoying the city and same with other Canadian cities so cross border shopping and trips isn't foreign on either side - don't know why you are singling out Canadians as if we are your enemy. Sure we support the U.S economy and in turn the U.S supports ours -problem is? You have this latent anger with Canada for some reason..
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
The Canadian and U.S economies are incredibly integrated.. Not everyone is as divisive as Botticelli and Hobbes.. I like driving home from work and seeing all the U.S plates here now that the nicer weather has come.. It reminds me how integrated we are and enjoy the fruits of both lands.
You've made accusations that I hate Canada, am stirring up trouble, casing divisiveness, or have latent anger towards Canada(among other things) in several threads when I disagree with you. This is ridiculous because if you look at my posts about Canada, many are positive. You've done the same with others like Boticelli and American posters asking basic questions about Canada such as the situation of Quebecois independence. In this case, we are simply discussing the realities of the Canadian economy. Nobody here seems to be angry towards Canada and I believe this is a total cop out from the debate.
In this discussion, you continually make the argument that the artificially inflated prices of Canada are made up for by higher wages, healthcare paid by taxes rather than privately, and higher education that at appear slightly lower out of pocket due to greater reliance on funding through taxes.
Boticelli and I, who have both lived in both countries, worked in both, and in my case also attended university both are arguing that these government benefits simply do not make up for the economic realities of the Canadian vs. the US market. The standard of living is flat out lower. The only part of Canada comparable to a US standard of living may be Alberta, and even there housing is wildly overpriced.
If the average Vancouverite makes 60k, and the average property costs around one million dollars, do you truly believe that getting healthcare through the government or having access to cheaper higher education makes up for this? The guy across the border in Seattle has way more jobs available, makes about the same but gets his average house for $400,000 rather than $1,000,000. Do you honestly believe that tax funded healthcare, and lower university prices make up for that? A few hundred thousand dollars? Logically the guy on the American side has much more disposable income and opportunity. Never mind Obamacare and in state tuitions that are similar to Canadian university pricing.
Nobody here is hating Canada. It is perplexing, because in some threads you lament that Americans dont pay attention to Canada, but in others you feel threatened when we talk about it. I am a huge fan of Quebecois culture, and read their news weekly, watch their programs, and prefer to speak and promote Quebec French over the so called 'standard French'. What I won't do is spin truths or be berated with passive agressiveness into lying about the Canadian economy! Relative to the US it is simply is grossly overpriced and lacking in jobs and options! Thats not an insult, it's just a pretty clear cut reality of the Canadian economy.
You've made accusations that I hate Canada, am stirring up trouble, casing divisiveness, or have latent anger towards Canada(among other things) in several threads when I disagree with you. This is ridiculous because if you look at my posts about Canada, many are positive. You've done the same with others like Boticelli and American posters asking basic questions about Canada such as the situation of Quebecois independence. In this case, we are simply discussing the realities of the Canadian economy. Nobody here seems to be angry towards Canada and I believe this is a total cop out from the debate.
In this discussion, you continually make the argument that the artificially inflated prices of Canada are made up for by higher wages, healthcare paid by taxes rather than privately, and higher education that at appear slightly lower out of pocket due to greater reliance on funding through taxes.
Boticelli and I, who have both lived in both countries, worked in both, and in my case also attended university both are arguing that these government benefits simply do not make up for the economic realities of the Canadian vs. the US market. The standard of living is flat out lower. The only part of Canada comparable to a US standard of living may be Alberta, and even there housing is wildly overpriced.
If the average Vancouverite makes 60k, and the average property costs around one million dollars, do you truly believe that getting healthcare through the government or having access to cheaper higher education makes up for this? The guy across the border in Seattle has way more jobs available, makes about the same but gets his average house for $400,000 rather than $1,000,000. Do you honestly believe that tax funded healthcare, and lower university prices make up for that? A few hundred thousand dollars? Logically the guy on the American side has much more disposable income and opportunity. Never mind Obamacare and in state tuitions that are similar to Canadian university pricing.
Nobody here is hating Canada. It is perplexing, because in some threads you lament that Americans dont pay attention to Canada, but in others you feel threatened when we talk about it. I am a huge fan of Quebecois culture, and read their news weekly, watch their programs, and prefer to speak and promote Quebec French over the so called 'standard French'. What I won't do is spin truths or be berated with passive agressiveness into lying about the Canadian economy! Relative to the US it is simply is grossly overpriced and lacking in jobs and options! Thats not an insult, it's just a pretty clear cut reality of the Canadian economy.
The realities of the Canadian economy according to you which you profess to be the end all and know all just because you went to university in Canada and in one part of it..
As I said before, a lot of goods can be found at around comparable prices in Canada as the U.S for day to day things. Where we pay inflated prices in relation are cigarettes, alcohol, gas (Taxes and having said that there is less inequality in Canada so more active redistribution of wealth.) and American chain stores. For example it is cheaper to shop at No Frills for groceries than Walmart yet there are no No Frills, Food Basics, Urban Planets in the U.S.. There are discount stores here and even clothing stores not to be found in the U.S that offer value pricing for quality wares so there are affordable options. If price is really an option we have Value Villiage, Dollarama and now even dollar tree and tons of less know competitors - heck I can get a can of Tuna at these places for 88c but you and Botticelli would say a can of Tuna costs 2 dollars in Canada - well yes for some brands but others 88c - that's not exactly grossly overpriced for a can of Tuna.. Is 3.99 grossly overpriced for 4L of milk? How about a Dollar for a Loaf of bread? How about 2.50 for a big Hot Dog from a street Vendor? Sure there are comparable stores/places in the U.S with similar prices - maybe a bit less I dunno - but value pricing for many day to day items exist here too but you'd never see either you or Botticelli naming them either because you don't want to, don't know of them or you yourselves are being disingenuous about day to day costs.. Whenever I go into such details (ie very similar pricing for exact same Tablet in Canada as the U.S you deflect)..
Same thing for affordable restaurants - I can go to a plethora of restaurants and get food for next to nothing because I live in a large city with lots of competition and Montreal is probably no different.. I live in an apartment smack dab in the middle of Toronto and pay 1050 bucks a month utilities included - sure I could find a cheaper apartment in Timmins but i'd be in Timmins! Anyway, what I pay is not bad to live in the city centre of a major N.A city but I could even find more affordable apartments outside the DT core and at the end of the day my housing costs is about 20 percent of my net income and even less related to gross. So there are always affordable options and as I said, we get things for our higher taxes that you guys don't! Not my problem that you and Botticelli don't know where to shop and don't know where jobs are in Canada.. I got an Associate Degree and make really good money so not sure what you mean about lack of jobs.. If I invested my education costs in a useless Univ Degree that isn't more relevant to the job market perhaps i'd feel the same way but I was smart about the course I took relative to the market in which I live.
If you think that is spinning the truth than so be it but I'm sorry, you and Botticelli always always talk in extreme terms when talking about Canada and if any parties are spinning the truth I think its you guys. The truth is costs vary in both places depending on where you live and the job situation is also very different depending on where you live..but what has happened and can't be denied is that Canadian Median class incomes have risen over the last decade relative the U.S as a whole and this has nothing to do with housing and that is something you can't deny! That has nothing to do with paper wealth - these are REAL incomes. So yes on the whole the U.S is cheaper because we pay more for certain goods but we also pay comparable prices for many many day to day things as well and for the umpteenth time - we do get more collectively across the social stratification for our higher taxes!
Housing is getting pricey in Toronto and Vancouver that is for sure and a big reason is a HUGE immigrant population with money to buy these places and in Toronto it is because of that and Geographic reasons related to surrounding farmlands - so ultimately the market will dictate housing costs based on location. Developers in Toronto are now building more affordable housing to meet the growing demand for it - more reasonably priced condo's and townhome communities for example but yeah - living in high demand high density cities will come at a cost as is the case in the U.S but the days of living in sprawling large lot, big houses in Toronto are over unless you want to pay a premium.. we are simply too dense and too geographically contained to support a market that existed over a decade ago. With all that said we can cherry pick specific places to bolster a claim ie Vancouver vs Seattle as you have but what about the job market in other places like Charleston WV or New Orleans and a plethora of other places - they exist and you can't will em away.
As for Americans not paying attention to Canada.... where exactly did I say that and what context? Do you think I go to bed at night worrying about the United States? I like the country and we are integrated economies and allies and yes the media in the U.S doesn't pay attention to Canada as Canadian media pays attention to the U.S but this doesn't bother me - it is a reflection of the populace. There are a billion topics about Quebec separation in the Canada section and asking questions is one thing but saying Quebecers are treated like second class citizens in the Canada forum imo is stirring the pot and far from being simply inquisitive. I could do the same in the U.S forums about a lot of topics but Id prefer to ask questions than level my own brand of judgement as a foreigner.. Same with you, you went to University in one part of Canada and think you are an expert on the country and all the nuances of all its people, its economy, its value system and almost always I see you underscoring the negative - especially if it isn't about Quebec and in relation to English Canada.
Montreal is so grungy-looking compared, esp. compared to Toronto and Vancouver. LA is grungy-looking in many areas as well, but at least LA has amazing weather and beautiful natural scenery among other strong suits.
Montreal is so grungy-looking compared, esp. compared to Toronto and Vancouver. LA is grungy-looking in many areas as well, but at least LA has amazing weather and beautiful natural scenery among other strong suits.
It can't be denied that Montreal has some beautiful architecture (Old Montreal) - a lot of character and fun places/people - especially for adults. As well, I've been to many of the nabe's in the city and they have wonderful charms.. Nice balance of density and a populace that enjoys going out and eating at the many restaurants or just chilling at the patio and enjoys the many offerings of the city.. All this in an exceptionally safe and civil package. Montreal is an amazingly vibrant and diverse place and some of the blight is easily overlooked and just adds to its charm imo and Vancouver is ultra sterile and boring in comparison imo. I gush when I think of Montreal and all its cultural appeals.. Sure the weather sucks in the winter and the scenery is different than around L.A but to me this is negated by the urbanity and charms of the place. Besides, I wouldn't want to live in a climate that is constant and I enjoy the different seasons and the unique experiences they bring. As with most Canadians - in the dead of winter we just do a cheap all inclusive to the Caribbean and Mexico.
Location: Tied (this is talking about location exclusive of Climate since that's a separate category).
Climate: LA
Scenery/Architecture: Montreal
Quality of life: Montreal
Crime: Montreal
Public transportation: Montreal
Shopping: Tied
Universities: LA
Entertainment/Things to see and do: Tied
Diversity: LA
Economy: Montreal? I believe it has a slightly lower unemployment rate and has a lower percentage of low-paying service jobs making up the economy, but not entirely sure
Culture: Montreal
Food: Tied
History: Montreal
Where would you rather live? Montreal
Where would you rather visit as first timer? Montreal
Yup. Think Buffalo is too snowy? Montreal is much snowier and would be the snowiest major city in the US. Like Minnesota temperatures? Then Montreal will be right up your alley. So you can count on the summer being a bit cooler than Minneapolis and still get double the snow and those same lovely bone-chilling temperatures. 7 months of winter can get to you. This coming from one who enjoys a bit of snow.
I hope nobody voting for Montreal is anyone who thinks that the LA government is too corrupt or inefficient. In Montreal it is widely acknowledged that the Mafia has a strong hand in government. Officials are notoriously corrupt and are regularly caught taking bribes and associating with the mob. Just look at the last few mayors. Tremblay resigned around 2012 when his mob connections were uncovered. Then the next guy coming in, Applebaum, saw his term cut short when he was arrested for fraud and racketeering and a bunch of other charges. So if you like kicking up to the Mafia, MTL is right up your alley.
And if you plan on living that US standard of living in MTL, fughettaboutit! Canada is not the US and you will have to make significant sacrifices. And its not the 'sacrifice' where you pay a bit more to live near a palm-lined beach. I'm talking about spending the same to maintain yourself in a harsh climate where you get a lot less bang out of your buck. I am assuming you have already mastered Quebecois French, because of course you need that to have reasonable prospects for a job and have bucks to get a bang out of in the first place. Even then, jobs are fewer and far between, even if your name happens to be Jacques Bouchard or Michel Gagnon and you are effectively bilingual. Be careful with how much gas you pump because those gas prices you like to complain about are like the stuff away in MTL.
I enjoyed living in MTL, but compared to LA its not even a fair competition. Philly vs. Montreal would be much more fair. Yes, we like to hate on LA but are you familiar with Montreal? Talk to some of those Quebecois and guess where so many of them constantly express they wish they could live? LA!
Actually, Montreal averages less snow than Buffalo by about 10 inches or so.
You do realize the worlds richest middle class designation was based on Median Incomes after tax and has nothing to do with housing right? So it has A LOT more to do with just paper value of rising real estate values. Fact of the matter is the Canadian Middle Class has been gaining on the American Middle Class for over a decade.
While I agree general day to day things are more expensive in Canada but am I hearing you right that they are 50 percent more.. Nonsensical! Where did you shop in Canada - Inuvik? Generally speaking on average Canadians pay about 20 percent more for retail goods than Americans. Does that add up well sure but don't forget Canadians pay less for things like Healthcare, Education and get things like paid maternal/paternal leave for a year etc. In addition to what I said before, we make slightly more than Americans in after tax income for the median middle class earner so the difference is minimal at best on the whole. Plus I can always strategically shop for things across the border easier than you can come up and enjoy cheaper healthcare and education. Right now my Ibuprofen, hair spray, gel, shampoo, body wash and most other household goods were purchased in Buffalo and quite frankly - McD's isn't that much cheaper in the U.S than here anymore....
I was going to say that people in Montreal can take that hour or so trip to Plattsburgh NY to shop for many things. People from Ottawa and Kingston burn up the I-81 corridor to places like Watertown or Syracuse for much of their shopping. So, there are ways to go around the higher Canadian prices.
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