Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Once again, you have to be kidding me. Yes, the presence and history of AA's is most definitely part of the Southern equation, but it's not even close to being the ONLY part. And since you're focusing on this particular aspect, you should shift your attention to San Antonio... which not only is a larger metro than Austin, but has a significantly SMALLER percentage of AA's in it's population than Austin. I have no idea if SA's Black population is shrinking or growing, but out of all the major TX metros, it has the smallest AA community by far. Yet, you never hear anyone talking about San Antonio as being some sort of Southern or Texas anomaly, do you?
On the flip-side of that discussion, Miami has one of the larger AA communities in the South, yet everyone is always going on and on about how "Miami isn't even a Southern city anymore". Detroit, L.A., Chicago, Oakland, Philly, and D.C. all have huge AA communities with deeply rooted histories. How Southern are they?
You aren't making much of a case for Austin being the "least" Southern with this point.
No one talks about San Antonio like that because what's happening in Austin isn't happening there; that was the point of the article.
And you're equivocating by bringing up non-Southern metros; obviously Blacks can be found in other regions of the country but I'm talking about the cultural homeland of African Americans. I happen to disagree with people to an extent concerning Miami, but you also have to remember that its Black population consists of many Caribbeans.
And yes I know it's just one particular point, but as an African American myself, it's something that causes me to put Austin in the "not quite as Southern" category.
No one talks about San Antonio like that because what's happening in Austin isn't happening there; that was the point of the article.
What isn't happening in SA that is happening in Austin? Shrinkage of the AA community? Please be more specific.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
And you're equivocating by bringing up non-Southern metros; obviously Blacks can be found in other regions of the country but I'm talking about the cultural homeland of African Americans. I happen to disagree with people to an extent concerning Miami, but you also have to remember that its Black population consists of many Caribbeans.
I brought up the non-Southern metros to illustrate a point, which is that those cities also have a large AA presence with a deep history going back multiple generations, that makes them (in the present tense at least) just as much a part of a "cultural homeland" as the Southern cities. Besides, I know that in Houston at least, more and more AA's are leaving their once all-Black neighborhoods and blending into other, traditionally non-Black neighborhoods. Even the suburbs. And this is nothing new either. That pattern has been developing in Houston since the 80's. I would imagine the same patterns are developing in Dallas and Atlanta as well. I don't know enough about Charlotte to even guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
And yes I know it's just one particular point, but as an African American myself, it's something that causes me to put Austin in the "not quite as Southern" category.
And that's fine, and totally understandable... but you have to realize that there are many other aspects to being Southern than just that. Does it take something away? Sure it does. However, it's not the end-all, be-all of what determines how Southern or non-Southern a city is. It's just a different flavor of Southern... and really, that has been my whole point from the get-go.
What isn't happening in SA that is happening in Austin? Shrinkage of the AA community? Please be more specific.
From the article:
Among large, fast-growing cities, Austin is the only one with a shrinking African-American population, according to a May report from the University of Texas at Austin that relied on Census Bureau data.
“It is completely outside the norm,” said Eric Tang, an author of the report, which looked at cities of at least 500,000 residents that experienced a double-digit rate of population growth from 2000 to 2010. While Dr. Tang said researchers expected to find that Austin’s African-American population was not growing at the same rate as the general population, they did not expect to find a decline. None of the other cities examined, Dr. Tang said, showed a drop.
Quote:
I brought up the non-Southern metros to illustrate a point, which is that those cities also have a large AA presence with a deep history going back multiple generations, that makes them (in the present tense at least) just as much a part of a "cultural homeland" as the Southern cities.
No. Blacks didn't begin migrating to Northern and Western urban centers in large numbers until the Great Migration, which began occurring about a century ago. In contrast, Blacks have been in the South en masse since the 1700's and 1800's, due to the "peculiar institution." And we can be found in sizable numbers in both rural and urban areas, which is not the case in the North and the West. This defining characteristic is a hallmark of the South in a way that's not the case for any other region in the country.
Quote:
Besides, I know that in Houston at least, more and more AA's are leaving their once all-Black neighborhoods and blending into other, traditionally non-Black neighborhoods. Even the suburbs. And this is nothing new either. That pattern has been developing in Houston since the 80's. I would imagine the same patterns are developing in Dallas and Atlanta as well. I don't know enough about Charlotte to even guess.
Yes, but we're talking about an overall decline, not just a reshuffling. That's not happening in other Southern cities.
Quote:
And that's fine, and totally understandable... but you have to realize that there are many other aspects to being Southern than that. Does it take something away? Sure it does. However, it's not the end-all, be-all of what determines how Southern or non-Southern a city is. It's just a different flavor of Southern... and really, that has been my whole point from the get-go.
Sure it's a different flavor; a flavor that's less characteristically Southern. That's my point.
Among large, fast-growing cities, Austin is the only one with a shrinking African-American population, according to a May report from the University of Texas at Austin that relied on Census Bureau data.
“It is completely outside the norm,” said Eric Tang, an author of the report, which looked at cities of at least 500,000 residents that experienced a double-digit rate of population growth from 2000 to 2010. While Dr. Tang said researchers expected to find that Austin’s African-American population was not growing at the same rate as the general population, they did not expect to find a decline. None of the other cities examined, Dr. Tang said, showed a drop.
Ok. Unfortunate, but still doesn't mean Austin has to turn in it's Southern city status. Doesn't take anything away from it's Black history either. What about all the AA's who left New Orleans en masse after Katrina? Does that also mean N.O. is now a less Southern city? Besides, what's happening in Austin could be a temporary setback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
No. Blacks didn't begin migrating to Northern and Western urban centers in large numbers until the Great Migration, which began occurring about a century ago. In contrast, Blacks have been in the South en masse since the 1700's and 1800's, due to the "peculiar institution." And we can be found in sizable numbers in both rural and urban areas, which is not the case in the North and the West. This defining characteristic is a hallmark of the South in a way that's not the case for any other region in the country.
So, a century isn't long enough to establish a strong cultural foothold and sense of community and history for a city? And I also suppose that those AA's who migrated West and North abandoned their culture and way of life? I don't get it. I grew up in Houston and lived in L.A. for a few years. I saw just as strong of an AA culture in L.A. as I ever did in Houston. And I'm not one of those scared whiteys who avoids places like South-Central or the 5th and 3rd wards. Maybe the AA history in places like L.A. doesn't go as far back as it does in the South, but it DOES go back. Long enough to be well-established as a huge part of the city's identity and culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Sure it's a different flavor; a flavor that's less characteristically Southern. That's my point.
No, that's your OPINION. Just the same as it's only my opinion that it's only a different brand of Southern, not "less" Southern. I guess we just see it two different ways.
Ok. Unfortunate, but still doesn't mean Austin has to turn in it's Southern city status. Doesn't take anything away from it's Black history either. What about all the AA's who left New Orleans en masse after Katrina? Does that also mean N.O. is now a less Southern city? Besides, what's happening in Austin could be a temporary setback.
I didn't say that Austin is no longer Southern because of what's happening here; I'm saying that's a feature that contributes to it being the least Southern of this bunch of cities we're comparing. NOLA isn't an apt comparison at all; even with the city's population loss due to Katrina, it never lost its Black majority and the culture of the city, largely shaped by its Black residents over the course of time, never changed. And it's a moot point now anyway, since the city is growing again. As far as what's happening in Austin being a temporary setback, time will tell but for now, that's how things are.
Quote:
So, a century isn't long enough to establish a strong cultural foothold and sense of community and history for a city? And I also suppose that those AA's who migrated West and North abandoned their culture and way of life? I don't get it. I grew up in Houston and lived in L.A. for a few years. I saw just as strong of an AA culture in L.A. as I ever did in Houston. And I'm not one of those scared whiteys who avoids places like South-Central or the 5th and 3rd wards. Maybe the AA history in places like L.A. doesn't go as far back as it does in the South, but it DOES go back. Long enough to be well-established as a huge part of the city's identity and culture.
The key word I used is homeland. Blacks who migrated North and West took the culture with them that they cultivated in the South, their cultural homeland. You're actually proving my point.
Quote:
No, that's your OPINION. Just the same as it's only my opinion that it's only a different brand of Southern, not "less" Southern. I guess we just see it two different ways.
Well if the city is losing something that's a strong defining feature of the South, I'd say it's becoming less characteristically Southern. That might turn out to be a long-term trend, and it may not. But of course, you're free to disagree.
Having been to all the cities on the list MANY times(I lived in 2 of them), I'd say:
Houston is the MOST stereotypical Southern "feeling" of the Texas cities, and after that it's Dallas, and then Austin is the least Southern "feeling" of the Texas cities.
Atlanta and Charlotte equally feel pretty darn Southern. Both cities have a high-number of Northern transplants, but both cities maintain quite ALOT of their Southern culture.
OVERALL I'd say the rankings go a little something like this:
1.Charlotte(Buckle of the Bible Belt, NASCAR Hall of Fame is located here, NASCAR has it's roots here.)
2. Atlanta(Birthplace of many famous Southern chains like Waffle House, Chick-Fil-La, Capitol of The SEC, always recognized as the Capitol of the South, too many Confederate monuments to count.)
3. Houston(Most humid city in Texas. Located in the most culturally Southern region of Texas(East Texas), shares many cultural traits with Southern Louisiana, accents tend to be thick, and have more of a Southern Drawl, rather than a Texas Twang. Very High Black population, but also very high Hispanic population.)
4. Dallas(Large Black population like Houston, and very high Hispanic population like Houston. Has a historical cotton-based agrarian base. Has some cultural connections to Northern Louisiana, but also shares cultural traits with Oklahoma, and other states in the Southern Midwest. Fort Worth is known as where "The West Begins". Strong "Cowboy"/"Vaquero" Rodeo culture. Feels more culturally "Texan" than anything)
5. Austin(Small Black population. Pretty darn geographically faaar from the rest of the South. Very brown, dry, and brushy in some parts, abundance of native cactus growing wild. Parts of West Austin look like it could pass for rural parts of Southern California. Very high Hispanic population. Native Whites more closely identify with being Texans, rather than being Southerners. Just a general lack of Southern culture outside of the Texas Twang that some of the Native Whites have. )
At their core, these discussions are really about how these cities have changed over time. Indeed the South as a region as changing, but as you yourself noted, this change isn't equally distributed; you simply can't discount the shifting cultural characteristics that are occurring in mainly urban centers throughout the region. It can be hard to quantify and everyone has their ways of describing the changes, but I think the basis of the discussions are valid. Now I know it can be a bit overbearing to see the onslaught of these sorts of discussions, and I think that's where the issue is with some people like yourself.
And yet here you are, in this thread and others like it, screaming about how people are bashing the South and you're tired of it. That refrain has gotten tired, so how about you go ahead and
Dude, come on; a "very small town atmosphere"? How many very small towns have you actually been to? Any objective person can see how silly such a statement is. The thousands of workers that converge on Uptown every day, the weekend bar hoppers, the LYNX commuters, the pro sports games, the malls, the rush hour traffic--tell me which "very small town" YOU know where all of that goes on. Nobody's saying it's like Chicago, but going from one extreme to the other--saying it's a very small town atmosphere just because it's not a big city--is extremely flawed. And I'd say being such a recent transplant to the city, you've not had the opportunity to truly experience the whole of what the city has to offer, especially in the surrounding neighborhoods nabes that have their own vibe and activity going on.
I'm not a dude, but no big deal. I've been to plenty of small towns unfortunately and plenty of big ones too. Either way, I have no desire to argue or put down on Charlotte, but "bless your heart" on a daily basis is pretty southern IMO. The people here are very southern, but why is that something to be defensive about? The Southpark mall has a bunch of super small versions of stores (tiny Bebe, small Pottery Barn kids, etc...). The Barnes and Nobles on Sharon Rd is the smallest Barnes and Nobles I've seen, even SC has a larger one. The traffic is nothing compared to NOLA traffic hour IMO, but it does depend on where you going. Forgot to mention that there are very few street lights in the neighborhoods and at night its pitch black in some parts of the big city south park area (pretty small town like IMO). BUT this isn't a Charlotte thread. So thats my take, you have yours. I feel we are hijacking the thread. Back to topic hopefully...
Having been to all the cities on the list MANY times(I lived in 2 of them), I'd say:
Houston is the MOST stereotypical Southern "feeling" of the Texas cities, and after that it's Dallas, and then Austin is the least Southern "feeling" of the Texas cities.
Atlanta and Charlotte equally feel pretty darn Southern. Both cities have a high-number of Northern transplants, but both cities maintain quite ALOT of their Southern culture.
OVERALL I'd say the rankings go a little something like this:
1.Charlotte(Buckle of the Bible Belt, NASCAR Hall of Fame is located here, NASCAR has it's roots here.)
2. Atlanta(Birthplace of many famous Southern chains like Waffle House, Chick-Fil-La, Capitol of The SEC, always recognized as the Capitol of the South, too many Confederate monuments to count.)
3. Houston(Most humid city in Texas. Located in the most culturally Southern region of Texas(East Texas), shares many cultural traits with Southern Louisiana, accents tend to be thick, and have more of a Southern Drawl, rather than a Texas Twang. Very High Black population, but also very high Hispanic population.)
4. Dallas(Large Black population like Houston, and very high Hispanic population like Houston. Has a historical cotton-based agrarian base. Has some cultural connections to Northern Louisiana, but also shares cultural traits with Oklahoma, and other states in the Southern Midwest. Fort Worth is known as where "The West Begins". Strong "Cowboy"/"Vaquero" Rodeo culture. Feels more culturally "Texan" than anything)
5. Austin(Small Black population. Pretty darn geographically faaar from the rest of the South. Very brown, dry, and brushy in some parts, abundance of native cactus growing wild. Parts of West Austin look like it could pass for rural parts of Southern California. Very high Hispanic population. Native Whites more closely identify with being Texans, rather than being Southerners. Just a general lack of Southern culture outside of the Texas Twang that some of the Native Whites have. )
I'm not a dude, but no big deal. I've been to plenty of small towns unfortunately and plenty of big ones too. Either way, I have no desire to argue or put down on Charlotte, but "bless your heart" on a daily basis is pretty southern IMO. The people here are very southern, but why is that something to be defensive about? The Southpark mall has a bunch of super small versions of stores (tiny Bebe, small Pottery Barn kids, etc...). The Barnes and Nobles on Sharon Rd is the smallest Barnes and Nobles I've seen, even SC has a larger one. The traffic is nothing compared to NOLA traffic hour IMO, but it does depend on where you going. Forgot to mention that there are very few street lights in the neighborhoods and at night its pitch black in some parts of the big city south park area (pretty small town like IMO). BUT this isn't a Charlotte thread. So thats my take, you have yours. I feel we are hijacking the thread. Back to topic hopefully...
As your entitled to your opinion
I just don't understand people who are always trying to put down charlotte. Like I said earlier Charlotte doesn't fill all that southern to me. (My opinion). I've been to many places in the city and I Rarely here a southern accent. But I do from time to time. One of the guys I work with has a very hard southern accent and sounds cool but sometimes I have to listen hard to understand some of the words and different types of slang he uses. I asked him where he's from and he said Monroe in Union county and he said that even with all the new people there the accent is still hard to the core. He's born and raised in monroe (55 years old) so I asked him so you bacially seen Charlotte from way back in the day. He said yes but I hardly even recognize it now. Too fast pace....traffic everywhere then it used to be. Don't find that many natives at all. He said it doesn't fill southern in meck county but a lot of the burbs do. That being said I'll value his opinion more since he was here before boom days and knows the city way more then someone from the outside looking in pressing judgment on the city. Being that im from LA and coming here. It was a culture shock but not by much. Still fill right at home. Food for thought a lot of people say Charlotte had no culture but with Charlotte being known as melting pot of transplants. After the boom calms down and The city forms its true identity I truly believe Charlotte will be a force to reckon with culture in its tier.
P.s. he also said that Charlotte seems to have a lot of northern influence and has lost lot of its southern roots. He said its not a bad thing because he likes the new growth patterns but when I wanna get that southern fill I just head over dere past that horrible road 74 to Monroe lol.
Last edited by choloboy36; 09-07-2014 at 09:09 AM..
See, this is where I totally disagree (in bold), and it drives home my earlier point about the "different versions of Southern", and also, in a roundabout way, addresses the stereotype thing.
I know how much Austin, in the last decade or so has become the regional "darling" of people from other regions (namely Californians and Northeasterners), and how people have this overly exaggerated view of Austin as some kind of anomaly for Texas and/or the South as being a "liberal utopia", but in my experience, Austin feels much more traditionally Texan than either Houston or Dallas, and quite a bit less diverse and urban as those cities.
Yes, there are tons of transplants in Austin. Yes, there is a much more laid back, slacker kind of vibe there. However, there are arguably equal percentages of transplants in all these other cities, and since they are all considerably larger (except Charlotte, which is only slightly larger), it is even more pronounced from what I've seen.
So Travis county votes the most Democratic of all the urban TX counties. Whoopty-do. People try and use that as a way to somehow separate Austin from Texas and the South... and it just doesn't wash. There are plenty of liberal "oasises" in the South besides Austin. Austin just makes a bigger deal out of it and people buy the hype. I don't know about Charlotte, but Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta are just as liberal/Democrat in their respective core areas as Austin. It's their overwhelmingly vast conservative suburbs that tilt the balance.
Either way, I just don't see how any of these factors makes any of these cities more or less Southern. I guess I just see things differently.
Well politics have zero influence on my opinion.
Going off of my personal experience, I've never even met a native Austinite with a southern accent. You're less likely to find quality southern cooking in Austin. I feel the same about San Antonio. In my opinion they are southern cities, just less culturally so than places further east.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've been to plenty of small towns unfortunately and plenty of big ones too. Either way, I have no desire to argue or put down on Charlotte, but "bless your heart" on a daily basis is pretty southern IMO. The people here are very southern, but why is that something to be defensive about? The Southpark mall has a bunch of super small versions of stores (tiny Bebe, small Pottery Barn kids, etc...). The Barnes and Nobles on Sharon Rd is the smallest Barnes and Nobles I've seen, even SC has a larger one. The traffic is nothing compared to NOLA traffic hour IMO, but it does depend on where you going. Forgot to mention that there are very few street lights in the neighborhoods and at night its pitch black in some parts of the big city south park area (pretty small town like IMO). BUT this isn't a Charlotte thread. So thats my take, you have yours. I feel we are hijacking the thread. Back to topic hopefully...
