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You say.... sometimes to have to loose to gain? Well seems Toronto did not have to loose anything. Merely growing pains and seeing NYC as more a pier to become more like in aspects .... but with all the best of being Canadian.
I did say Toronto was still growing faster all along and clearly ..... no city has that Golden position to take its glory today and 50% of the population immigrants from other Nations and increasing at a fast pace boasted on C-D.
Why it will continue to WIN in the poll here. So all is good.
When I said lose I meant in terms of a more cohesive and strong local culture. When a city is inundated yoy with the number of newcomers from so many different places like Toronto for the length of time Toronto has had to do this, it'll naw away at something like a strong local culture and character. This is something that is constantly levelled at Toronto whereas cities like Boston and Montreal for example are lauded for having these strength's. That said, if either of those cities had the growth Toronto has had from the places Toronto has had them from and the length of time - they would certainly have taken a pretty strong hit on the local culture and character domains.
As for winning the poll - sure. I think NYC has at least equal if not greater claims to winning this poll including having a slower growth rate than its main competitor. Something Toronto at least for now and the likely future - does not need to worry about re Montreal as it is growing about 50-60 percent more per year than Montreal.
It's true that Montreal as "second city" nonetheless feels like "somewhere's" uncontested big city when you're there.
If you're sitting in a sports bar the "national" sportscast that's on the screens is from Montreal, the magazines at the supermarket checkout are from Montreal, the most popular talk shows are produced in Montreal, your kids' school books are published in Montreal, etc.
You don't really get the impression there is another metropolis (within the same "nation" anyway) that's looming over you in Montreal, like you have in most countries when you're in the "second city".
This is one of the things I was wanting to say. Montreal sort of occupies its own niche in a way that you could argue that it is still somewhat of an equal with Toronto (in my opinion, at least). Montreal's relationship with Toronto kind of reminds me of Barcelona's relationship with Madrid - Madrid might be the economic powerhouse of its nation, and bigger in terms of population, but Barcelona has a unique cultural identity that makes it hard to say that Madrid is "above it" in the way NYC and Mexico City are above other cities in their respective nations. That Madrid-Barcelona comparison is analogous to the comparison of Toronto and Montreal, in my opinion. By the way, I am not knocking Toronto - both Toronto and Montreal are two of my favorite cities on the planet!
This is one of the things I was wanting to say. Montreal sort of occupies its own niche in a way that you could argue that it is still somewhat of an equal with Toronto (in my opinion, at least). Montreal's relationship with Toronto kind of reminds me of Barcelona's relationship with Madrid - Madrid might be the economic powerhouse of its nation, and bigger in terms of population, but Barcelona has a unique cultural identity that makes it hard to say that Madrid is "above it" in the same way NYC and Mexico City are above other cities in their respective nations. That's how I feel about Montreal and Toronto as well. By the way, I am not knocking Toronto - both Toronto and Montreal are two of my favorite cities on the planet!
Culture as being something cohesive that unites people collectively is something harder to pin down in Toronto vs Montreal. I said earlier, any city that is taking in the number of newcomers into it as Toronto has endured for over 50 years now is bound to take a hit on such cohesion. Culture by the numbers ie number of overall cultural institutions, people employed in the arts and creative arts industry is greater by the numbers in Toronto. Funding is greater on a national level for example. All said, that isn't going to capture that strong cultural cohesion that Montreal has been able to maintain. For a tourist, it is certainly more in your face. It cost the city in some ways though - Toronto became the growth leader in Canada and by most metrics of a large and powerful city, Toronto is now pretty solidly the 'main' city in Canada. It doesn't detract from your observations. These are things many observe as different about the two. The way I see it, Canada wouldn't be as interesting if these two were clone cities. They offer something different from the other and the comparative dynamic is interesting.
What I will say is, where Toronto lacks in some of the more obvious it makes up for to those that actually spend time to dig into its deeper layers. Culture exists - lots of it and expressed from the many different diaspora communities throughout the city and metro but it isn't going to provide it to you in an in your face package in just an urban centre.
I love both Madrid and Barcelona btw. It is a good comparative analogy though having been to both a few times - i'd take Madrid over Barcelona almost every time.
This is one of the things I was wanting to say. Montreal sort of occupies its own niche in a way that you could argue that it is still somewhat of an equal with Toronto (in my opinion, at least). Montreal's relationship with Toronto kind of reminds me of Barcelona's relationship with Madrid - Madrid might be the economic powerhouse of its nation, and bigger in terms of population, but Barcelona has a unique cultural identity that makes it hard to say that Madrid is "above it" in the way NYC and Mexico City are above other cities in their respective nations. That Madrid-Barcelona comparison is analogous to the comparison of Toronto and Montreal, in my opinion. By the way, I am not knocking Toronto - both Toronto and Montreal are two of my favorite cities on the planet!
Geneva-Zurich is also a good example. Zurich is more than double the size of Geneva in terms of population living on Swiss territory, and still one and a half times the size of Geneva if you count Geneva's "suburbs in France".
Yet when in French-speaking Switzerland "the big city" for people is still Geneva. And it's something tangible you can feel.
Idk, I think Metro NY might continue to grow, but I suspect that NYC city proper could stagnate or even lose a little population as it further gentrifies, as many gentrifying neighborhoods tend to lose density with gentrification.
I agree it would be a pretty big leap, but I could easily live another half century so who knows.
That’s the complete opposite of what has actually been happening here though. Is there anywhere that gentrification results in population loss? I can’t speak for many other cities but here gentrification brings population gains with insane amounts of growth and development
I said earlier, any city that is taking in the number of newcomers into it as Toronto has *endured* for over 50 years now is bound to take a hit on such cohesion. .
Interesting choice of word to describe immigration to Toronto!
The way I see it, Canada wouldn't be as interesting if these two were clone cities. They offer something different from the other and the comparative dynamic is interesting.
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I totally agree. We're actually lucky to have this in our country!
When I said lose I meant in terms of a more cohesive and strong local culture. When a city is inundated yoy with the number of newcomers from so many different places like Toronto for the length of time Toronto has had to do this, it'll naw away at something like a strong local culture and character. This is something that is constantly levelled at Toronto whereas cities like Boston and Montreal for example are lauded for having these strength's. That said, if either of those cities had the growth Toronto has had from the places Toronto has had them from and the length of time - they would certainly have taken a pretty strong hit on the local culture and character domains.
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You've said this a few times but I am not sure that high immigration and diversity really tells the entire story for Toronto.
There are other cities out there that have had similar histories and that still have a strong locally-rooted character that has emerged. NYC comes to mind as an obvious one. It's not simply a "world in one city" type of place with samplings of all the world's cultures but very little that's in your face that's iconically New York-ish. It's quite the contrary.
Toronto may yet evolve into this type of place - who knows?
Or it may just be that the local foundational culture (which is "Anglo-Canadian") is both elusive and discreet to the point that the "Toronto brand" may never truly gel in that way.
I totally agree. We're actually lucky to have this in our country!
Few if any cities get called "Cloned cities" I never heard Canadian cities ever accused of it either. But there has been in cities accusing of too many cloned-like high-rises .... in fast growing cities. For profit is still why these buildings got built and some city zones for and maintaining a price point is in every city unless. But still the more varieties and even color (colour) variations in building materials used..... the less a cloned effect gets accused.
Toronto's rise was without issues American cities took blows and damage for decades. Even Montréal had what Toronto was positioned to gain and never had a boom population held back. Few if any cities in the world (maybe a Dubai) can boast (if it is) over 50% of the population are immigrants and rising (maybe Vancouver if another) .... since many earlier decades ago in US cities.
But then some US cities in the Great Latino/Hispanic migration with millions illegally. Rise some US cities immigrant % to high levels. But Toronto's is virtually all educated immigrants as is Canada's National policy. That is the opposite of the Huge US surge in immigrants .... many who came with the clothes on their backs crossing the Rio Grand River and those legally from South of the US borders. Not saying all.... as not to be accused I did. But some Americans wanting to limit US immigration. Clearly mean it primarily for un-educated immigration and bringing family members over afterwards.
Really, Toronto had no set-backs in over a half century of its rising but those like growing pains it addresses. So with its current size and nothing seemingly to change that in its continued highest immigration levels? It has no rival. Even in Montréal today.
NYC's metro has lost population. There then is a difference and the region its in. But in urban form .... NYC has no Competition in being overtaken in the US. But some southern tier US mega-regions will continue large growth albeit not in their Urban form. But they do not zone for a high-rise urban form and mid-rise areas as Toronto. It gets what it zones for as developers clearly build up. Again, not saying any of this is bad. As not to be accused..... but Toronto has had unprecedented good fortune and ongoing in its population rise and Première status in Canada and desire to claim a position after NYC in North America as its aim.
Few if any cities get called "Cloned cities" I never heard Canadian cities ever accused of it either. But there has been in cities accusing of too many cloned-like high-rises .... in fast growing cities. For profit is still why these buildings got built and some city zones for and maintaining a price point is in every city unless. But still the more varieties and even color (colour) variations in building materials used..... the less a cloned effect gets accused.
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It's not so much the case in the U.S. but in many countries there is quite a bit of similarity in cities all across the country. France is definitely like this - it tends to have beautiful cities but it's often the same style that is replicated. There are only a few outliers like Strasbourg (we know the reason why that is).
Even countries like Belgium and Switzerland which have a Canada-style language divide have more of a similar urban feel across that divide.
And Mexico's cities even if the landscape changes from north to south and east to west, have definite similarities between them.
They're certainly way more similar than Montreal vs. Toronto.
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