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I think your figure is correct. The last I saw for Montreal was a bit north of 26 million. I didn't want to share because I wanted Bostonkid to pony up with his source. Last I saw both cities were breaking their own visitation records so it is a success story one and all. Toronto's airport is 2.5 times busier than Montreal so i'm not surprised T.O is ahead in terms of visitation. People are entitled to their own opinion about which city they prefer but they are not entitled to their own facts!
Sorry I did not phrase correctly.
I should say that when foreign visitors think of where to visit in Canad for tourism - it's Montreal/Vancouver/Quebec City first. Toronto just doesn't strike me as a "tourism" city where people go to vacation or sight see (just look at the near empty hop on hop off buses that drive around downtown Toronto). I mean, the city can't even get its acts together to build a proper pedestrian-friendly street or build a grand public square - two of the most essential amenities that tourist-friendly cities have.
Recently, the Toronto Star did a prominent piece on Dundas Square - presumably the most iconic "public space" in Toronto. The architect of Dundas Square actually called it "extraordinarily ugly", "small minded", and a "disgrace" to the city - which pretty much summarizes how many Torontonians see the city today:
If tourists want to see tall buildings and grand urban architecture - they go to Chicago, NYC
If tourists want to see ocean and nature - they go to Vancouver, SF, Miami
If tourists want to see history and culture - they go to Boston, NYC, New Orleans, Montreal, Quebec City
Toronto doesn't really fit into any of those.
And that is not necessarily a bad thing - Toronto is a very well rounded city by itself, but it's most definitely not your classic "touristic city".
I should say that when foreign visitors think of where to visit in Canad for tourism - it's Montreal/Vancouver/Quebec City first. Toronto just doesn't strike me as a "tourism" city where people go to vacation or sight see (just look at the near empty hop on hop off buses that drive around downtown Toronto). I mean, the city can't even get its acts together to build a proper pedestrian-friendly street or build a grand public square - two of the most essential amenities that tourist-friendly cities have.
Recently, the Toronto Star did a prominent piece on Dundas Square - presumably the most iconic "public space" in Toronto. The architect of Dundas Square actually called it "extraordinarily ugly", "small minded", and a "disgrace" to the city - which pretty much summarizes how many Torontonians see the city today:
I thought this quote at the end of that article was interesting:
Shifting Yonge-Dundas Square from a public space to a commodified plaza “says something important about Toronto,” said Margaret Kohn, a political science professor at the University of Toronto. “The character of public space reflects the values of the society.”
I've always seen Toronto's civic culture as highly mercantile.
I should say that when foreign visitors think of where to visit in Canad for tourism - it's Montreal/Vancouver/Quebec City first. Toronto just doesn't strike me as a "tourism" city where people go to vacation or sight see (just look at the near empty hop on hop off buses that drive around downtown Toronto). I mean, the city can't even get its acts together to build a proper pedestrian-friendly street or build a grand public square - two of the most essential amenities that tourist-friendly cities have.
Recently, the Toronto Star did a prominent piece on Dundas Square - presumably the most iconic "public space" in Toronto. The architect of Dundas Square actually called it "extraordinarily ugly", "small minded", and a "disgrace" to the city - which pretty much summarizes how many Torontonians see the city today:
If tourists want to see tall buildings and grand urban architecture - they go to Chicago, NYC
If tourists want to see ocean and nature - they go to Vancouver, SF, Miami
If tourists want to see history and culture - they go to Boston, NYC, New Orleans, Montreal, Quebec City
Toronto doesn't really fit into any of those.
And that is not necessarily a bad thing - Toronto is a very well rounded city by itself, but it's most definitely not your classic "touristic city".
This is a pretty petty post tbh. Empty hop on hop off buses - are you for real? Particularly in the summer that is not what i'm seeing at all - i'm seeing pretty full and busy hop on off buses. I think you are being disingenuous. Toronto is a growing and emerging urban city. The reason people visit are for a number of different reasons. In the Canadian context - I think Toronto's visitation numbers speak for themselves regardless of what you think about the merits of it as a place to visit. No I also don't think that when people think of visiting Canada they necessarily think of Montreal or Vancouver. Have you missed the memo on the most visited city in the country. Have you missed the memo on the busiest airport in the country by far. Have you missed the memo on the most visited attractions in Canada - hint they are in Toronto. As for Vancouver - which is a pretty city with decent urbanity but not nearly as urban or interesting as a city as Toronto and I think you as a native of Vancouver must admit that - like seriously. If one like mountains by all means - Vancouver is a better city to visit than Toronto - otherwise as an urban destination i'm struggling to see the competition here.
Montreal otoh as an urban city is fantastic and it indeed has better pre WWII architecture than Toronto but it also feels smaller and more provincial. Is it fun with great food and culture - sure i'd heartily encourage anyone who hasn't been to Montreal to visit it. Toronto to me gives off the bigger city and international cosmo vibe - it blends old and new quite nicely and it has many great nabe's, Asian restaurants and good eats in general and has its laundry list of interesting places to visit and chill - is it worth a visit - absolutely. It doesn't have to be the 'everything' city to garner visitation - don't discount that people like to visit well rounded places. I think that it posts the visitation numbers it does and why people spend more in Toronto than any other CAD city - because there are reasons for it beyond which you are seeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
I've always seen Toronto's civic culture as highly mercantile.
The main reason people go to Yonge and Dundas square and actually hang out there is to partake in largely free events including free concerts and publicly funded events. Often, there are food stalls and food festivals along with other festivals that are free to partake in. Of course if you want to eat, you'll have to pay but which festival in any city don't you usually have to pay for food? Sure there are billboards and such but so what. Nathan Phillips Square otoh is totally free of billboards and any type of 'mercantilism' so what is you response to NFP which is the largest square in Canada btw.
I honestly don't know how NYC, Chicago, S.F or even Montreal's Civic spaces are any less mercantile than Toronto. You can't tell me in the Summer Montreal isn't gearing itself to make money off the tourist dollar - c'mon who ya fooling here lol...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
Interesting choice of word to describe immigration to Toronto!
It is true though. There are enormous challenges associated with accommodating the type of growth Toronto has consistently had to endure. Sure the GDP is the largest in the country but it comes with a hefty price tag to ensure all these new people have the infrastructure, services, employment opportunities, housing etc. I'm amazed Toronto's per cap GDP is equal to a smaller city like Montreal given the disparity in growth. That all said, as a person who loves different cultures and different foods from different cultures - once you get to know it T.O is tough to beat for a wide array of different culinary experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
I totally agree. We're actually lucky to have this in our country!
Yup - It is unfortunate however that Toronto often falls victim to underhanded swipes more often and for that I really don't get it.
You've said this a few times but I am not sure that high immigration and diversity really tells the entire story for Toronto.
There are other cities out there that have had similar histories and that still have a strong locally-rooted character that has emerged. NYC comes to mind as an obvious one. It's not simply a "world in one city" type of place with samplings of all the world's cultures but very little that's in your face that's iconically New York-ish. It's quite the contrary.
Toronto may yet evolve into this type of place - who knows?
it may just be that the local foundational culture (which is "Anglo-Canadian") is both elusive and discreet to the point that the "Toronto brand" may never truly gel in that way.
I wouldn't say Toronto doesn't have a local culture and character. If you want to use the British, Irish Pub metric it certainly has its share that is for sure. It even has a Scottish Pub where you can get Haggis
Even the architecture of the old parts of the city are decidedly British in inspiration - Victorian and Edwardian architecture abounds.
Comparatively though, Toronto's foreign born is decidedly higher than NYC. NYC has the diversity but less FOB's and more established immigrant communities so I think the more recent infusion of diversity in Toronto could be part of the reason why the local culture and character isn't as strong as say NYC plus simply being outnumbered by a fair margin more than in NYC.
I don' think the Toronto brand of being anglo should apply anymore tbh. Why should it? Now, over 50 percent of the city is foreign born. The Vis min mix slightly more so - why would a city like this brand itself as exclusively Anglo in brand when the trajectory by 2036 will be almost 70 percent Vis min? If you look at Toronto's nabe's I don't even think they are discreet. Chinatown in Toronto has to be one of the most in your face and 'real' Chinatowns in N.A - real people live there. It isn't just some token area for the sake of a Chinatown.
This is the case with so many of the nabes in the city so no - I don't think the cultural displays in the city are necessarily discreet - I just don't think they are as monotonous as other places.
I wouldn't say Toronto doesn't have a local culture and character. If you want to use the British, Irish Pub metric it certainly has its share that is for sure. It even has a Scottish Pub where you can get Haggis
.
A cynic might say that stuff like Haggis is also "imported", and not really Toronto culture either!
Even the architecture of the old parts of the city are decidedly British in inspiration - Victorian and Edwardian architecture abounds.
Comparatively though, Toronto's foreign born is decidedly higher than NYC. NYC has the diversity but less FOB's and more established immigrant communities so I think the more recent infusion of diversity in Toronto could be part of the reason why the local culture and character isn't as strong as say NYC plus simply being outnumbered by a fair margin more than in NYC.
I don' think the Toronto brand of being anglo should apply anymore tbh. Why should it? Now, over 50 percent of the city is foreign born. The Vis min mix slightly more so - why would a city like this brand itself as exclusively Anglo in brand when the trajectory by 2036 will be almost 70 percent Vis min.
Where your view and mine diverge is that I don't see "Anglo-Canadian" culture as simply the importation of British stuff on Canadian soil. Or at least, it shouldn't be.
Anglo-Canadian culture (if it wants to achieve a certain degree of "cred" anyway) would normally be somewhat foreign-esque to a native British person too.
Just like Australian culture is to a Brit, Brazilian culture to someone from Lisbon, or French Canadian Québécois culture to someone from France.
In all cases there is a certain familiarity and it's not difficult to get "with it" and up to speed, but it's also clear that you're basking in something different.
These things I am describing do exist in "Anglo-Canadian" culture to some degree, but they're as I said just very elusive, discreet and even muted. Even moreso in Anglo-Canada's metropolis, Toronto.
If you look at Toronto's nabe's I don't even think they are discreet. Chinatown in Toronto has to be one of the most in your face and 'real' Chinatowns in N.A - real people live there. It isn't just some token area for the sake of a Chinatown.
This is the case with so many of the nabes in the city so no - I don't think the cultural displays in the city are necessarily discreet - I just don't think they are as monotonous as other places.
As I mentioned, these types of cultures you are referring to are not the ones I find discreet in Toronto. Not at all. It's the foundational Torontonians/Canadian one that is discreet.
And as I said, I doubt it's just because of the tremendous diversity in the city.
NYC has not abandoned Broadway-style theatre and Yankees baseball just because a huge proportion of the city's residents are from countries where that stuff has no relevance at all.
Yup - It is unfortunate however that Toronto often falls victim to underhanded swipes more often and for that I really don't get it.
Part of that is grossly unfair I agree (and is probably related to jealousy/envy) but part of it is also in reaction to certain Torontonians casting the city as something that it is not.
(As we say in French... qui aime bien châtie bien!. Poorly translated: the Lord reproves the ones he loves!" )
A cynic might say that stuff like Haggis is also "imported", and not really Toronto culture either!
C'mon AJ - I was inferring about UK influence. Toronto's native culinary scene isn't that spectacular. I will admit that. The wave of immigrants have made the culinary scene exciting in the city - not the native stuff from before the 60's. T.O aka hogtown though, does do a pretty mean peameal bacon sandwich. That would be the best claim to local T.O cuisine. Not exciting but pretty good nonetheless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
These things I am describing do exist in "Anglo-Canadian" culture to some degree, but they're as I said just very elusive, discreet and even muted. Even moreso in Anglo-Canada's metropolis, Toronto.
That was my point.
I grew up in the 80's and 90's. Do you really think I or most Torontonians grew up in a time that Anglo Canadian influence was strong? It already dissipated quite a bit.
A) Waves of immigration was already a big part of the cultural landscape
B) It is rare to find native born Torontonians even outside immigrants. There are huge numbers of Domestic migrants. People with strong local roots in Toronto are far outnumbered by everyone else.
Given A and B - are you really surprised about a 'muted' anglo native culture. Toronto has for as long as I've been alive a hodge podge of different - cultures and everything else. Not everyone needs to identify with a strong local culture. People can be happy with variety. In the case of Toronto - you better like that a lot of different otherwise I will be the first to say - the city ain't for you. If you want a strong native culture with strong representation of longstanding rooted local/native culture - Montreal is a far better choice for you. It would have been cool to go back in time to Toronto of yesteryear - I mean like before WWII or even during when there was a strong native local culture. Obviously I can't do that but it is interesting to think of what it would have been like even though that Toronto is long gone. There are largely only physical traces of it.
As for the NYC and broadway theatre and Yankee stadium - A/J what about the Leafs and Maple Leaf Gardens man, lesser extent Raptors, Blue Jays, Argos and did I especially say the Leafs - even though they have sucked you can't fault T.O Leaf fans for lack of passion and support for the Canadian sport. In terms of hockey cities - i'd say Montreal and Toronto are absolutely equal as hockey cities - the best examples of hockey cities in the world bar none - the Canadiens are more successful - the Leafs are the more valuable franchise. I'd rather more cups personally lol.. Theatre in Toronto is actually healthy - broadway type stuff but also local grown stuff. Actually this may be one of the best examples of native local cultural expression in the city. Does an explosion of local brewed craft beer count?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
Part of that is grossly unfair I agree (and is probably related to jealousy/envy) but part of it is also in reaction to certain Torontonians casting the city as something that it is not.
(As we say in French... qui aime bien châtie bien!. Poorly translated: the Lord reproves the ones he loves!" )
I don't really buy the underlined. A lot of people in these forums boost their cities AJ. Look at BK saying with confidence that Montreal was already the leader in tourism in Canada when there was no evidence to support that and actually the evidence pointed to the contrary.. Not that Montreal doesn't warrant strong visitation - it does receive a healthy number and it is growing every year as is T.O. Anyway - If I say something inaccurate or untrue about Toronto - call me out but if you do, make sure you can demonstrate and show that what I am saying is untrue - don't just make crap up. I don't mean you I mean in general.
You say that sometimes things are grossly unfair.. Well look at your second point "qui aime bien châtie bien" - well I have one for you - cause and effect. If people level grossly unfair arguments against anything really - someone is going to respond. This isn't to say that there isn't Toronto posters who aren't exactly objective - but let's face it - pretty much every city in here has those. I think the more rational conclusion is that for whatever reason - T.O just pisses a small but vocal group of people off. It is ok - it isn't like Toronto is a shrinking violet and nobody is visiting - I've demonstrated that the opposite is true.
This is a c v c forum AJ - what am I supposed to say re Toronto.. Oh its a nice city and growing and leave it a that. Of course i'm going to express what is good about the place in some detail. I also have been pretty vocal about its weaknesses too particularly on transit development and housing affordability. You should easily bear witness to that as you read the T.O forums
I don't really buy the underlined. A lot of people in these forums boost their cities AJ. Look at BK saying with confidence that Montreal was already the leader in tourism in Canada when there was no evidence to support that and actually the evidence pointed to the contrary.. Not that Montreal doesn't warrant strong visitation - it does receive a healthy number and it is growing every year as is T.O. Anyway - If I say something inaccurate or untrue about Toronto - call me out but if you do, make sure you can demonstrate and show that what I am saying is untrue - don't just make crap up. I don't mean you I mean in general.
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I didn't really have you in mind when I wrote that.
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