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Well, that's why debate follows. No data set will totally and completely reflect the nuances of this discussion. That's why CD exists, I suppose.
As for your analogy, I view it is imperfect because it's an equal delta between A-B-C. If Boston was 5M, Chicagoland 9M, and New York 13M, I'd be much more willing to say Chicago is more like New York. But the reality is, New York is 20M.
Maybe a better example would be Grand Rapids 1M - Boston 5M - Los Angeles 13M. But to that I would say, as an MSA, I think Boston is more like the Grand Rapids than Greater Los Angeles. Now would most Bostonians agree (because they've never been to Grand Rapids)? Probably not, and if that's the point you're driving, I think it's fair.
I see what you mean - but would still side with the Bostonians here if that was the case. Different perspectives I suppose.
Well, that's why debate follows. No data set will totally and completely reflect the nuances of this discussion. That's why CD exists, I suppose.
As for your analogy, I view it is imperfect because it's an equal delta between A-B-C. If Boston was 5M, Chicagoland 9M, and New York 13M, I'd be much more willing to say Chicago is more like New York. But the reality is, New York is 20M.
Maybe a better example would be Grand Rapids 1M - Boston 5M - Los Angeles 13M. But to that I would say, as an MSA, I think Boston is more like the Grand Rapids than Greater Los Angeles. Now would most Bostonians agree (because they've never been to Grand Rapids)? Probably not, and if that's the point you're driving, I think it's fair.
I read it and mjw is basically saying the same thing I said.
I see what you mean - but would still side with the Bostonians here if that was the case. Different perspectives I suppose.
Well, I do think the “nuances” of similarities beyond populations are important. So I certainly understand why you’d agree with Bostonians on that one. But in the case of Chicago and Boston, it’s really not a major difference like you get with a city like Grand Rapids.
Like, diversity, economy, transportation, the central city and amenities, weather, architecture, history, growth patterns all very much matter. So I admit, the Grand Rapids vs Boston vs LA comparison does get trickier. I think using any small T2 or T3 metro, relative to any major or even global MSA, skews the comparison heavily towards the two larger metros.
But to come full circle, and from what I can tell according to the more like NY crowd, the only real area where Chicagoland is more like NYC MSA is - downtown/the loop, and population % difference - all of the nuances we’d need to consider don’t really apply, as Chicago and Boston are fundamentally more similar.
Well, I do think the “nuances” of similarities beyond populations are important. So I certainly understand why you’d agree with Bostonians on that one. But in the case of Chicago and Boston, it’s really not a major difference like you get with a city like Grand Rapids.
Like, diversity, economy, transportation, the central city and amenities, weather, architecture, history, growth patterns all very much matter. So I admit, the Grand Rapids vs Boston vs LA comparison does get trickier. I think using any small T2 or T3 metro, relative to any major or even global MSA, skews the comparison heavily towards the two larger metros.
But to come full circle, and from what I can tell according to the more like NY crowd, the only real area where Chicagoland is more like NYC MSA is - downtown/the loop, and population % difference - all of the nuances we’d need to consider don’t really apply, as Chicago and Boston are fundamentally more similar.
It really seems to the the argument for Chicago being more like New York is pretty vibes based. Chicago presents as a major city more effectively for its size. And there is some of that “isolation effect” where Chicago is simply a hub for a much bigger region so it has I guess a “cosmopolitain” vibe for the lack of a better word. That Boston doesn’t have
Eg. People from Boston absolutely leave to “live life in the big city” in New York, and as such other than people moving from like Maine, people who move to Boston aren’t trying to make it in the big city. They’re moving for a job that happens to be in a big city. While people from all over the Midwest kind of move to Chicago to be in the big city even though its economy isn’t necessarily a super over preformed of like Cincinnati or Minneapolis or Grand Rapids.
Atlanta has this vibe going for it to. Like it’s the destination for Southerners moving to a big city. So it has an aura about it no Northeastern city has.
If that makes sense?
I also thing qualitatively Boston is much much closer to Chicago than quantitatively. Like there really isn’t anything Chicago has that Boston lacks. Sports teams, elite universities, top tier companies, top tier cultural institutions, etc. Even Chicago’s theatre scene is a lot more like Boston than New York.
The Chicago MSA is 2x as big, and it feels 2x as big. I think that's one point, at the very least, anyone should agree with. Dragging CSA comparisons into the conversation is a straw man argument, in my opinion.
That said, there IS something about the Northeast that gives you a level of continuity not found in most anywhere else. From DC all the way to Portland, there is a uniformity in population, with city after town after city after town. To some degree, the interconnectivity in the Northeast makes it feel like a mega region. Because it is a mega region. But that is not at all to be confused with this conversation or this thread. That's a separate conversation entirely.
I still don't think the % approach that people are taking makes a lot of sense. This idea that because the Chicago MSA is 100% bigger than Greater Boston, and the New York MSA is 100% bigger than Chicagoland, Chicago is in the middle.. It really doesn't hold water.
Chicagoland has 4M more people than Greater Boston. New York MSA has 10M more people than Chicagoland. Both on paper, and in practice, this logic makes far more sense.
I already compared the Chicagoland and Greater Boston similarities, down to individual regions and growth patterns. It's real. It's far harder to come up with one-to-one comparisons between Chicagoland and New York Metro. Often times, it's more like a three-to-one comparison, where they apply. And that's really the difference.
Regarding csa for Boston I think your relationship to neighboring msas is very dependent on where you live. If you live north shore you may interact infrequently with providence metro. However, there are many places south of Boston where providence (20-30min) is as close as Boston(20-30min). Many people south of Boston travel to providence for work or to go out as often as they do Boston. Similarly you may go to Marblehead or Ipswich to get to the ocean in the north whereas those south may be more apt to explore Newport. The same would be true for Worcester to the west. Id say the csa argument is more relevant to those living far south, west within the msa because they actually use more than one msa often. Being on north shore Id say you “feel” the larger adjacent msas less.
The fact that providence (msa population similar to Milwaukee) is included in bostons csa and Milwaukee not in chicago would mean there is far more interaction between Boston and providence msas or Boston and Worcesters compared to chicago/Milwaukee.
Id say the csa argument is more relevant to those living far south, west within the msa because they actually use more than one msa often. Being on north shore Id say you “feel” the larger adjacent msas less.
Maybe North Shore as in Salem and Gloucester, but folks in the Merrimack Valley will feel ties to Nashua/Manchester like the south is to Providence/Newport. Then in the northwest in places like Hudson, Littleton, Groton, Peperell etc. you might have reason to go to Fitchburg, Lowell, or Nashua, which of course spans 3 msas.
Last edited by Boston Shudra; 02-04-2023 at 05:14 AM..
Regarding csa for Boston I think your relationship to neighboring msas is very dependent on where you live. If you live north shore you may interact infrequently with providence metro. However, there are many places south of Boston where providence (20-30min) is as close as Boston(20-30min). Many people south of Boston travel to providence for work or to go out as often as they do Boston. Similarly you may go to Marblehead or Ipswich to get to the ocean in the north whereas those south may be more apt to explore Newport. The same would be true for Worcester to the west. Id say the csa argument is more relevant to those living far south, west within the msa because they actually use more than one msa often. Being on north shore Id say you “feel” the larger adjacent msas less.
The fact that providence (msa population similar to Milwaukee) is included in bostons csa and Milwaukee not in chicago would mean there is far more interaction between Boston and providence msas or Boston and Worcesters compared to chicago/Milwaukee.
.
Providence was super a part of my life in Boston. I could drive to downtown Providence in 35 minutes Family and friends there.
$6.25 to go from Hyde Park (Boston neighborhood) to DOWNTOWN Providence
$6.50 to take commuter rail from Hyde Park (Boston neighborhood) to Roxbury OR Downtown (Boston neighborhood).
Even my mom says they used to party in Providence in The 1980s.
Whereas places north of Cambridge I have to have a real solid purpose or monetary reason to go in there and it’s very very infrequent. I’m even in Worcester (and MetroWest) more than I am like Lynn or Lowell or especially Lawrence or Salem (both once in my life).
Maybe North Shore as in Salem and Gloucester, but folks in the Merrimack Valley will feel ties to Nashua/Manchester like the south is to Providence/Newport. Then in the northwest in places like Hudson, Littleton, Groton, Peperell etc. you might have reason to go to Fitchburg, Lowell, or Nashua, which of course spans 3 msas.
Agree. Manchester is a much smaller msa compared to providence, though, in reality and on “feel.” Really I’m just saying that metro Boston likely interacts with its neighboring msas (which is why they are included in the csa) relatively more than chicagoland making a csa conversation relevant.
Agree. Manchester is a much smaller msa compared to providence, though, in reality and on “feel.” Really I’m just saying that metro Boston likely interacts with its neighboring msas (which is why they are included in the csa) relatively more than chicagoland making a csa conversation relevant.
Just look at like Worcester County’s GDP per capita vs Median incomes it’s clear a lot of people commute into Boston. While not enough to make CSA’s a 1:1 comparison to MSA’s it probably makes Boston functionally a metro of like 5.3 million rather than 4.9 million. It’s part of the reason Boston’s MSA economy is 70% the size of Chicagos. Beyond being a richer city more people from outside the MSA contribute to the MSA than in Chicago
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