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To answer your question, small town non-metro New England and Pennsylvania are similarly lily white. Nothing to contest on that point, and there's no question that NY State is more racially/ethnically diverse across the board than either small town PA or New England. There are absolutely aspects about NY that make it distinct from anywhere else in the Northeast, and (along with NJ) its thoroughly entrenched level of diversity is one of them.
Regarding politics, I've come to learn myself that New England is a lot more political diverse than it gets credit for--there are plenty of conservative pockets in the region, even without being represented by a "red" county. That being said, it stands to reason that a given area of rural New England is more likely to be at least a shade bluer than rural NY. I'll also concede that a given area of rural PA is also likely to be a shade redder than a given rural area in NY.
That being said, the fundamental dynamic of the big, liberally-inclined metro areas versus the much more conservative hinterlands does indeed appear to apply much more in both PA and NY than much of New England, the one of the very few regions in the US that complicates that principle.
There are conservative pockets, for sure.
But it just is not widespread. In return, rural NY and PA have 'liberal pockets' throughout their red curtain. It's the opposite in rural NE. That's how I see it.
Why not? When I referred to the Boston area, I'm talking about other cities that essentially blend in with Boston and with CT, it is different because there isn't really a concentrated city.
Keep in mind that NYC is a city of 5 counties as well. So, it is different in that respect as well.
I guess you say to put the Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse CSA's/stretch together, as that is similar to the population of CT and again, CT would be more Hispanic, but rest would be similar. NY north of NYC would be similar to MA in population and MA is probably more Hispanic and may be a little bit more Asian, but NY may have a little bit higher black percentage and more Native Americans.
Even with this said, the difference in terms of NY is that there are rural/small towns that have at least decent amounts of diversity, which can impact a dynamic like politics in those specific communities. That was the simple point I was making with that.
Manyof smaller towns and cities in MA and CT do have diversity though. But theyre not really rural. Theyre just surrounded by an exurban area. Some are rural. Some are just small towns and cities
then of course you have the larger cities of New Bedford and Fall River in the Providence MSA
New London
Norwich
Torrington
Willimantic
Middletown
Newport
Even MA towns like Montague, Belchertown, Shutesbury, Deerfield, Pelham, Lunenburg, and Winchednon all have some modicum of diversity- ebing either 5% of one minority or 15% minority overall.: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/...n-has-changed/
Much of NYs diversity is concentrated in one municipality in a way that is not at all comparable to CT and MA. If you just take that one city out NY State instantly becomes more akin to CT or even MA than it does NJ demographically. I think that's hard to argue from a number standpoint. Removing the entire Boston Metro is ridiculous because you're removing a huge portion of the state land area and well over 40% of the population.
And to assert they blend into Boston is a very outsider's perspective. The minority communities in Lowell or Lawrence or Lynn don't really blend into Boston...most of them are wholly unfamiliar with Boston. Brockton you could make the argument but no not really- there are some 20 miles between Brockton and southern Boston that are pretty low density/wooded.
If you were to take out all of the NYC suburban areas in Long Island and Downstate it would negatively impact NY's diversity and still it wouldn't be as big a portion of the NY population as removing the MA portion of the Boston metro would be relative to MA's population.
NY is a much bigger state so you'll have more examples of diverse rural or semi rural towns but realistically there are minorities in far-flung areas of CT and MA as well. And the depth and % of diversity in those NY towns don't compare that well to NJ which achieved the diversity of NY without having 40% of its population in Jersey City.
But just in general the minority populations are spread all over MA in particular. More so it appears than CT but maybe akin to NY State.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 08-22-2022 at 09:09 AM..
Berkshire County also has Pittsfield, which is a bigger city than Batavia. So, you have to keep dynamics of a specific county in mind.
Again, can you name any rural/small town communities in New England with some visible diversity? I guess you could say Ayer and Shirley for MA due to the presence of Fort Devens, but besides that, can you think of any, where that dynamic could play a part in politics in a specific small town community?
I'm not even thinking of a community that diverse, but this just gives an example of such a community.
this kind of glazes over how many towns in NY ARENT like that. Theres 994 towns in NYC state more than MA CT RI combined. And there is just way more rural area in general and more rural towns. So the odds of coming across those towns is greatly increased.
I did extremely basicq quickfacts data analysis...
If you remove teh Greater Boston Area, MA goes from like 68 --> 73% white.
Removing LI, Westchester and NYC, NYS goes from 52% to about 70% white. Hell, just removing NYC, and NYS goes from like 52% to 64% white.
Although in MA, most of that diversity is in Hampden County.. the Springfield area.
Oh no no no...keep doing you have to move Rockland, Putnam, and I think Dutchess Orange and Ulster Counties. Once your remove that I guarantee it's as white as MA.
And obviously less diverse than CT and roughly on par with MA. So in what world is that the same as New Jersey?
Duderino and I had this same exercise with PA and Philly. The diversity of MA without Greater Boston is heavily heavily underrated by Duderino and others. Didn't believe me in the PA vs MA thread either.
Oh no no no...keep doing you have to move Dutchess, Putnam, and I think Rockland Orange and Ulster Counties. Once your remove that I guarantee it's as white as MA.
And obviously less diverse than CT and roughly on par with MA. So in what world is that the same as New Jersey?
Duderino and I had this same exercise with PA and Philly. The diversity of MA without Greater Boston is heavily heavily underrated by Duderino and others. Didn't believe me in the PA vs MA thread either.
Im aware, yes. I just did some real basic calculations.
But a lot of diversity in Greater Boston either falls in Bristol County (Fall River/PVD area) or Springfield/Hartford Area. The areas not connected to a metropolitan area (Berkshires, Franklin, that county Northampton is in, most of Worcester, MV/ACK/Barnstable) is like 80%+ White. Maybe more. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...etts/PST045221 <-- Like these truly 'rural-ishh' counties are 87.5-93% white.
In PA for example, you have places like Allentown, Harrisburg, Easton and Scranton which are pretty diverse in a lot of ways. Its just in PA... you have so much more rural land space so it jacks up your white % a lot faster than in MA or CT, which are both heavily suburban/urban/developed.
I see the cases for both. I just think MA is more suburban/urban than NYS and PA by %. Which it is. Now if we add in NH and VT to MA and CT, we would get rather similar numbers to NY and PA since it would be more of an 'apples to apples' comparison.
Im aware, yes. I just did some real basic calculations.
But a lot of diversity in Greater Boston either falls in Bristol County (Fall River/PVD area) or Springfield/Hartford Area. The areas not connected to a metropolitan area (Berkshires, Franklin, that county Northampton is in, most of Worcester, MV/ACK/Barnstable) is like 80%+ White. Maybe more.
In PA for example, you have places like Allentown, Harrisburg, Easton and Scranton which are pretty diverse in a lot of ways. Its just in PA... you have so much more rural land space so it jacks up your white % a lot faster than in MA or CT, which are both heavily suburban/urban/developed.
I see the cases for both. I just think MA is more suburban/urban than NYS and PA by %. Which it is.
yea i mean most of NY State counties that arent metro ar 80% white too.
Calling somewhere like Monticello Rural when it's 2000 people per square mile is a choice. Idk if there are enough of those towns to make a splash. Its 7,000 people out of 19,000,000.
Never mind that its a part of the New York City CSA. Its far out and I get it but yea. It's not fully non-metro NY.
Same for Newburgh 6,000 ppsqmi (built to house much more than that) and firmly in the Poughkeepsie MSA and New York City CSA.
yea i mean most of NY State counties that arent metro ar 80% white too.
Calling somewhere like Monticello Rural when it's 2000 people per square mile is a choice. Idk if there are enough of those towns to make a splash. Its 7,000 people out of 19,000,000.
Never mind that its a part of the New York City CSA. Its far out and I get it but yea. It's not fully non-metro NY.
Same for Newburgh 6,000 ppsqmi (built to house much more than that) and firmly in the Poughkeepsie MSA and New York City CSA.
Monticello isn't a small town surrounded by a rural landscape? I already mentioned some other communities like Liberty, Fallsburg, Lyons, Sodus, Albion, Medina and even Ellenville, Catskill, Clyde, Newark, Ravena and some others. These are small town communities that aren't next to a city, but are surrounded by rural environments and that have been this way for a while. That is what I'm referring to and how the dynamics may be different in such places, given that politics occurs at different levels. This is all I'm stating/asking, not about "if you do this and that, you get this" type of stuff. It wouldn't make sense to do, as it becomes apples to oranges given the reality of the major/bigger cities in each state and the size of the states.
Those small cities in MA are not rural or small towns and the other towns appear to be very recent or have a dynamic like a prep school in Winchendon, that has a history of getting some black students that play ball at the prep school.
Keep in mind that this is about New England and not just MA and CT.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-22-2022 at 10:53 AM..
I’m fairly confused how Rural upstate being 87% white rather than 89% white like rural New England really changes the overall vibe of these places? Like I don’t think it’s very noticeable.
Especially when Worcester or Springfield are significantly more diverse than Syracuse or Rochester.
That’s the biggest difference between New England in NY/PA. Outside NYC Upstate is much less immigrant heavy, like even Barnstable County is more foreign born than Erie County NY. Monroe County NY is less foreign born than Hampshire MA.
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