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Monticello isn't a small town surrounded by a rural landscape? I already mentioned some other communities like Liberty, Fallsburg, Lyons, Sodus, Albion, Medina and even Ellenville, Catskill, Clyde, Newark, Ravena and some others. These are small town communities that aren't next to a city, but are surrounded by rural environments and that have been this way for a while. That is what I'm referring to and how the dynamics may be different in such places, given that politics occurs at different levels. This is all I'm stating/asking, not about "if you do this and that, you get this" type of stuff. It wouldn't make sense to do, as it becomes apples to oranges given the reality of the major/bigger cities in each state and the size of the states.
Those small cities in MA are not rural or small towns and the other towns appear to be very recent or have a dynamic like a prep school in Winchendon, that has a history of getting some black students that play ball at the prep school.
Keep in mind that this is about New England and not just MA and CT.
Liberty New York CSA, Poughkeepse MSA pop 9k
Fallsburg NY CSA pop 13k
Lyons Rochester MSA (near Medina and Clyde) 6k
Sodus Rochester MSA pop 2k
Albion Rochester MSA pop 5k (near Medina)
Medina Rochester pop 6k MSA
Clyde Rochester MSA pop 2k (right next to Newark)
Ravena- 15 minutes from Albany pop 3k
Newark Rochester MSA pop 9k (right next to Clyde)
Ellenville New York MSA pop4k
Catskill 35 min from Albany pop 4k
so none of these are actually rural. The reality is many of them are on the same road between Buffalo and Rochester or just outside of Rochester or Albany. They're about as removed from Rochester/Buffalo as Brockton is from Boston... I think that's all misrepresentation.
a Grand total of ~60k. Or scaled-down to MA size a town of about 22k. I'm sure there more towns but it seems diverse rural towns are far from a defining feature of NY. Especially considering quite a fe wof these town are 80%+ white themselves.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 08-22-2022 at 12:37 PM..
Fallsburg NY CSA
Lyons Rochester MSA (near Medina and Clyde)
Sodus Rochester MSA
Albion Rochester MSA pop 7k (near Medina)
Medina Rochester MSA
Clyde Rochester MSA pop 2k (right next to Newark)
Ravena- 15 minutes from Albany pop3k
Newark Rochester MSA pp o9k (right next toclyde
Ellenville New York MSA pop4k
Catskill 35 min from Albany po4k
so none of these are actually rural. The reality is many of them are on the same road between Buffalo and Rochester or just outside of Rochester or Albany. They're about as removed from Rochester/Buffalo as Brockton is from Boston... I think that's all misrepresentation.
Yes they are small towns in a rural setting and some of your information is incorrect. Ellenville is in the Kingston MSA, but is about 40 minutes away from Kingston. It is in the NYC CSA, but it a good 2 hours and 15 minutes from NYC. Clyde isn't next to Newark, as you have to go through Lyons on Route 31 to get from Clyde to Newark, in which all are small town, rural communities. Fallsburg is near Monticello and Liberty, which are a good 2 hours or so from NYC and not in the CSA.
You are also obviously overlooking development of the communities themselves. I suggest either actually going to them personally or even on street view and see what the reality is.
Again, you are adding to my post/point, which simply was rural, small towns with some decent diversity not a "defining feature", which wasn't said. Now, it is as if you are trying too hard to disprove something which takes a simple look at the communities themselves.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-22-2022 at 12:51 PM..
Yes they are small towns in a rural setting and some of your information is incorrect. Ellenville is in the Kingston MSA, but is about 40 minutes away from Kingston. It is in the NYC CSA, but it a good 2 hours and 15 minutes from NYC. Clyde isn't next to Newark, as you have to go through Lyons on Route 31 to get from Clyde to Newark, in which all are small town, rural communities. Fallsburg is near Monticello and Liberty, which are a good 2 hours or so from NYC and not in the CSA.
You are also obviously overlooking development of the communities themselves. I suggest either actually going to them personally or even on street view and see what the reality is.
Again, you are adding to my post/point, which simply was rural, small towns with some decent diversity not a "defining feature", which wasn't said. Now, it is as if you are trying too hard to disprove something which takes a simple look at the communities themselves.
I street viewed most of these two when doing this.
Indeed I came to find out they all look almost exactly like western MA
The fact is they're all close to each other or other major cities in NY State. places 35 minutes from Boston I wouldn't call rural but sure 35 minutes from Springfield I might call rural... They're literally not rural. Maybesparsely populated but not actually Rural. The impression I had was they were legit rural. They're just some small towns but I don't think its enough to really distinguish it from New England on a fundamental level.
Seems to me most of these towns are simply a function of Buffalo and Rochester having a lot of black people and general black suburbanization. Furthermore, Id have to assume most of this town had some level of industry that drew blacks in the past-as is the case with Pittsfield. Rather than agrarian rural communities with a black population like in the South.
I will say, I really want to go to Upstate NY. and I do want to see these places.
I’m fairly confused how Rural upstate being 87% white rather than 89% white like rural New England really changes the overall vibe of these places? Like I don’t think it’s very noticeable.
Especially when Worcester or Springfield are significantly more diverse than Syracuse or Rochester.
That’s the biggest difference between New England in NY/PA. Outside NYC Upstate is much less immigrant heavy, like even Barnstable County is more foreign born than Erie County NY. Monroe County NY is less foreign born than Hampshire MA.
Actually the biggest difference is the culture and politics amongst the these white people. White people, like any race in our country, are not a monolith. Rural white people in New England tend to be more affluent or upwardly mobile, moderate/progressive, and irreligious. Rural white people in Upstate NY are more likely than their New England counterparts to be working class to poor, conservative, and religious. Rural white people in NY are much more similar to rural Pennsylvanians than they are New Englanders.
But it just is not widespread. In return, rural NY and PA have 'liberal pockets' throughout their red curtain. It's the opposite in rural NE. That's how I see it.
I think this is pretty much true. It's obviously not as cut-and-dry as New England rurals liberal! NY/PA rurals conservative! New York is a bit of a transition zone. But again, I really see Eastern NY as similar to Eastern PA, whereas New England has nothing to match the Appalachian culture one sees in the Southern Tier of NYS, nor the Rust Belt socioeconomic dynamic shared between Pittsburgh and Buffalo.
The fact is they're all close to each other or other major cities in NY State. places 35 minutes from Boston I wouldn't call rural but sure 35 minutes from Springfield I might call rural... They're literally not rural. Maybesparsely populated but not actually Rural. The impression I had was they were legit rural. They're just some small towns but I don't think its enough to really distinguish it from New England on a fundamental level.
Seems to me most of these towns are simply a function of Buffalo and Rochester having a lot of black people and general black suburbanization. Furthermore, Id have to assume most of this town had some level of industry that drew blacks in the past-as is the case with Pittsfield. Rather than agrarian rural communities with a black population like in the South.
I will say, I really want to go to Upstate NY. and I do want to see these places.
Lyons was/is a big location for black migrant farm workers from the South(Florida in particular) and some just stayed there, as well as some of the nearby towns after working in vineyards, apple orchards, etc. Same goes for Albion, Medina, etc. on the other side from Rochester. Trust, it is small town/country America, but the former village/now CDP is about 10% black or so and about 7% Hispanic(about 10% 2 or more too). It has been known for its good HS Basketball program and there are many years that the team is mostly black. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTZQqJpz5GE (He's at East Tennessee State now, btw)
Once you leave village limits, it gets rural/country quick until the next village. Sodus, Clyde-Savannah and Newark nearby all have a similar history of migration and having good teams with quite a few black players as well. So, it is actually the opposite in terms of migrating to the small town and then, you may have some that move to say Rochester, Syracuse or small cities like Geneva or Auburn.
That's the thing. Some of the towns had industries like brickyards or farm work that attracted some or they were recruited to work in said industry. Then, they stayed. A lot of those towns have organizations, churches, etc.
You do have a few farmers as well.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-22-2022 at 02:41 PM..
Lyons was/is a big location for black migrant farm workers from the South(Florida in particular) and some just stayed there, as well as some of the nearby towns after working in vineyards, apple orchards, etc. Same goes for Albion, Medina, etc. on the other side from Rochester. Trust, it is small town/country America, but the former village/now CDP is about 10% black or so and about 7% Hispanic. It has been known for its good HS Basketball program and there are many years that the team is mostly black. Once you leave village limits, it gets rural/country quick until the next village. Sodus, Clyde-Savannah and Newark nearby all have a similar history of migration and having good teams with quite a few black players as well. So, it is actually the opposite in terms of migrating to the small town and then, you may have some that move to say Rochester, Syracuse or small cities like Geneva or Auburn.
That's the thing. Some of the towns had industries like brickyards or farm work that attracted some or they were recruited to work in said industry. Then, they stayed. A lot of those towns have organizations, churches, etc.
You do have a few farmers as well.
Yea that's different than MA as we never got migrant workers ( I think maybe Springfield did though, tobacco). I know Windsor and Bloomfield got folks to work on tobacco. It seems very strange you would need black people to work on relatively low-intensity crops like apples or vineyards. But that's cool.
I would absolutely in my opinion call Pittsfield a rural community and it's about 8% black out of 40,000 (2020). But I know they came there for the General Electric jobs.
Not sure why there is a decent % of Latinos in some of these small MA towns/cities either it's strange to me. You mentioned Winchednon balck, basketball player. there are 131 black people in Winchendon so 10 basketball teams. But there are 575 Latinos (5.5%). Not sure why. That's 2x the population of the boarding school.
We already mention Shirley and Ayer but nearby Harvard MA has 6,00 people and is 5.5% black (non latino, non mixed race) and 5.6% latino.
Lunenburg has 675 Latinos and I didn't know it was a town until today.
Sunderland Ma is in Franklin County MA and aggressively rural. It's 73.8% white, 12% Asian, 5.7% latino, 3.1% black.
Great Barrington is 81.1% white 9.0% Latino, 2.3% Black, 4.0% mixed race
I think this is pretty much true. It's obviously not as cut-and-dry as New England rurals liberal! NY/PA rurals conservative! New York is a bit of a transition zone. But again, I really see Eastern NY as similar to Eastern PA, whereas New England has nothing to match the Appalachian culture one sees in the Southern Tier of NYS, nor the Rust Belt socioeconomic dynamic shared between Pittsburgh and Buffalo.
Looks like the majority of towns in NH ME and RI are Trump towns. Not the majority of the populace of course but the majority of towns. In CT about half the towns look like the break for trump.
Yeah and what's a bit confounding to me in this discussion is that people are getting so caught up in --at least what I consider -- minute details that they aren't looking at overarching cultural themes shared between NY and PA. Mid-Atlantic power house metros in the Southeast portion of both states; politically moderate ancillary metro areas just north of said powerhouse metros; mountain getaways in the north thereof; rust Belt urban rivalism in the West, and the cultural Appalachia connection to boot. The ratios may be different between the two states, but it's all there.
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