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Both got the 2 largest cities on the East Coast, & both cities share a river border with NJ, in the Southeast corner of the state, forming a tri-state area. Both states have a rust belt shrinking population city as their second largest city in the state, and both of these cities are more considered the Midwest than the Northeast. The 2 states share a several hundred mile border. Both states are most famous for their biggest city but the vast majority of the state’s area is rural farmland, mountains, and forests in the parts outside the city. Historically, these were the 2 largest and most important states in the US for like 100 years. Only difference is Pennsylvania is more of a purple state and it doesn’t have Ocean coastline like New York, although both states are on the Great Lakes. Honestly you couldn’t find a state more similar to New York than Pennsylvania
Good points but as you note, Pennsylvania's lack of an ocean coastline is actually kind of a big difference and one thing that connects New York to New England (and New Jersey).
5 New York counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, Kings and Richmond) border the ocean and at least another 3 (Manhattan, the Bronx and Westchester) are coastal counties. Between New York City, Long Island and Westchester - that is more than half of New York State's population in a coastal county.
Good points but as you note, Pennsylvania's lack of an ocean coastline is actually kind of a big difference and one thing that connects New York to New England (and New Jersey).
5 New York counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, Kings and Richmond) border the ocean and at least another 3 (Manhattan, the Bronx and Westchester) are coastal counties. Between New York City, Long Island and Westchester - that is more than half of New York State's population in a coastal county.
While this is undeniably true, the 3 states of New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are in many ways interconnected and have somewhat of a shared identity, as these are the 3 states unique in being Northeastern states that aren’t part of New England, not to mention that the NYC-Jersey-Philly area is essentially contiguous, and this area represents the 2 biggest cities on the East Coast being less than 100 miles from one another, downtown to downtown. PA’s largest city is significantly closer to NYC than New England’s biggest city is (2hrs to Philly vs 4 hrs to Boston), which is part of the reason that I personally identify NY more with PA than New England, although Boston does have cultural similarities to New York as well. While PA itself doesn’t have a coastline, Pennsylvanians use the nearby beaches on the Jersey Shore much like many New Yorkers (esp those in the Rockland/Orange/Westchester area, where the Parkway merges with 87 & 287, and to a lesser extent NYC residents). This also represents the shared identity that these 3 states have. South Jersey beaches like Wildwood & Cape May are overrun with PA license plates, so while the state of Pennsylvania itself doesn’t have direct ocean access, it isn’t significantly inland to where its residents can’t easily access the ocean. And in turn, South Jersey shore towns have a heavy Philly/PA influence. The state of New Jersey itself is a testament to the shared identity of New York and Pennsylvania because our state shares strong cultural ties to both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
Yes, I don't know why so many people seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that the "Midwest" doesn't border the East Coast. Geographically, the Midwest is supposed to literally refer to the country's mid-section, or its vast interior--i.e., the "mid" point until you reach the West. Interior Northeast is the only way to describe non-East Coast NY and PA.
The idea that any place in New York or Pennsylvania--two of the nation's original Eastern colonies--is "Midwest" always makes me laugh.
Ehh idk as an East Coast native, i identify the Great Lakes and the Rust Belt as being culturally a part of the Midwest. Cleveland is considered a quintessential Midwestern city, and geographically & culturally Buffalo and Pittsburgh are far more similar to Cleveland than they are to their state’s largest city. Whether you want to call this interior Northeast or Midwest, the bottom line is this is an area that is culturally way closer to the middle of the country than it is to the East Coast, and this is all I’m trying to say. To bring home my point, across the Lake in Canada, Toronto is considered way more similar to Chicago than it is to New York, despite the fact that it is across from New York State.
Last edited by GoYanksGiantsNets; 08-10-2022 at 08:53 AM..
While this is undeniably true, the 3 states of New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are in many ways interconnected and have somewhat of a shared identity, as these are the 3 states unique in being Northeastern states that aren’t part of New England, not to mention that the NYC-Jersey-Philly area is essentially contiguous, and this area represents the 2 biggest cities on the East Coast being less than 100 miles from one another, downtown to downtown. PA’s largest city is significantly closer to NYC than New England’s biggest city is (2hrs to Philly vs 4 hrs to Boston), which is part of the reason that I personally identify NY more with PA than New England, although Boston does have cultural similarities to New York as well. While PA itself doesn’t have a coastline, Pennsylvanians use the nearby beaches on the Jersey Shore much like many New Yorkers (esp those in the Rockland/Orange/Westchester area, where the Parkway merges with 87 & 287, and to a lesser extent NYC residents). This also represents the shared identity that these 3 states have. South Jersey beaches like Wildwood & Cape May are overrun with PA license plates, so while the state of Pennsylvania itself doesn’t have direct ocean access, it isn’t significantly inland to where its residents can’t easily access the ocean. And in turn, South Jersey shore towns have a heavy Philly/PA influence. The state of New Jersey itself is a testament to the shared identity of New York and Pennsylvania because our state shares strong cultural ties to both.
Ehh idk as an East Coast native, i identify the Great Lakes and the Rust Belt as being culturally a part of the Midwest. Cleveland is considered a quintessential Midwestern city, and geographically & culturally Buffalo and Pittsburgh are far more similar to Cleveland than they are to their state’s largest city. Whether you want to call this interior Northeast or Midwest, the bottom line is this is an area that is culturally way closer to the middle of the country than it is to the East Coast, and this is all I’m trying to say. To bring home my point, across the Lake in Canada, Toronto is considered way more similar to Chicago than it is to New York, despite the fact that it is across from New York State.
I think that comparison has as much to do with both being similar in terms of area population(about 10 million people) versus look and feel.
Ehh idk as an East Coast native, i identify the Great Lakes and the Rust Belt as being culturally a part of the Midwest. Cleveland is considered a quintessential Midwestern city, and geographically & culturally Buffalo and Pittsburgh are far more similar to Cleveland than they are to their state’s largest city. Whether you want to call this interior Northeast or Midwest, the bottom line is this is an area that is culturally way closer to the middle of the country than it is to the East Coast, and this is all I’m trying to say. To bring home my point, across the Lake in Canada, Toronto is considered way more similar to Chicago than it is to New York, despite the fact that it is across from New York State.
I'm from SEPA and have bounced around BosWash during my adult life, so I completely understand the propensity for folks to generalize "the middle" of the US.
However, there are lots of nuances that differentiate places like Upstate NY and rural PA from the actual Midwest if you actually get into the "nitty gritty"--aspects such as architecture, accents, industry types, religious identity, topography, history, and ethnic identity to name a few.
Not to say there aren't some cultural "overlays" that overlap with areas in the Midwest, such as heavy deindustrialization (i.e., the "Rust Belt"), or proximity to the Great Lakes, but these features do not preclude underlying Northeastern geography or identity.
Ehh idk as an East Coast native, i identify the Great Lakes and the Rust Belt as being culturally a part of the Midwest. Cleveland is considered a quintessential Midwestern city, and geographically & culturally Buffalo and Pittsburgh are far more similar to Cleveland than they are to their state’s largest city. Whether you want to call this interior Northeast or Midwest, the bottom line is this is an area that is culturally way closer to the middle of the country than it is to the East Coast, and this is all I’m trying to say. To bring home my point, across the Lake in Canada, Toronto is considered way more similar to Chicago than it is to New York, despite the fact that it is across from New York State.
Yeah, in someways I would say Buffalo and Rochester are more similar to Cleveland or Akron than they are to anywhere else in the northeast (save I guess Syracuse). Rochester and Buffalo maybe a little more intact than Cleveland proper. But, the relatively flat great lakes topography with the land rising as you move away from the city into the Appalachian plateau. Architecturally they are also pretty similar with lots of double and single family houses.
Yeah, in someways I would say Buffalo and Rochester are more similar to Cleveland or Akron than they are to anywhere else in the northeast (save I guess Syracuse). Rochester and Buffalo maybe a little more intact than Cleveland proper. But, the relatively flat great lakes topography with the land rising as you move away from the city into the Appalachian plateau. Architecturally they are also pretty similar with lots of double and single family houses.
Going east to west in NY, the first arguable mid-western landscape is the gently rolling broad-skied valley of the Genesee River, something not typical of anything to its east, but a signal of Things to Come. It's a subtle landscape change, but a change nevertheless.
Going east to west in NY, the first arguable mid-western landscape is the gently rolling broad-skied valley of the Genesee River, something not typical of anything to its east, but a signal of Things to Come. It's a subtle landscape change, but a change nevertheless.
Hmm, you are saying the Genesee River with its multiple large waterfalls flowing through deep Letchworth Gorge and with its source in the Appalachian Mountains; "the Grand Canyon of the East" is not typical of the East but instead is a sign of things to come of the Midwest? I find that a bizarre comment!
I will simply note that, culturally and attitudinally speaking, I sensed I was no longer on the East Coast when I spent the night in the Pittsburgh suburb of Green Tree after helping a friend move there from Philadelphia.
And I would characterize the behavior of the people I ran across during my brief stay there, like the municipal employee who called out "Hello" to me from some distance as he was mowing a lawn in front of the municipal buildings while I was walking along the sidewalk to the nearest Starbucks, as more characteristic of Midwesterners than East Coast denizens. Sheesh, I'm about 45 years resident in the Northeast, and some people tell me I still have Midwestern attitudes and ways of dealing with people.
But I will also stipulate that Pittsburgh is not in the Midwest. Rather, it's the biggest city in Appalachia.
Hmm, you are saying the Genesee River with its multiple large waterfalls flowing through deep Letchworth Gorge and with its source in the Appalachian Mountains; "the Grand Canyon of the East" is not typical of the East but instead is a sign of things to come of the Midwest? I find that a bizarre comment!
Cleveland is pretty similar in that regard. It's flat plain near the late with the land gradually rising into the Appalachian plateau creating gorges/waterfalls and broad glaciated valleys. That whole Cleveland to Rochester region forms kind of a transition between the flat Midwest plains and the rugged interior mountain region.
Hmm, you are saying the Genesee River with its multiple large waterfalls flowing through deep Letchworth Gorge and with its source in the Appalachian Mountains; "the Grand Canyon of the East" is not typical of the East but instead is a sign of things to come of the Midwest? I find that a bizarre comment!
No, I am talking the longer valley below (north of) the gorge.
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