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New York City covers an exceptionally small geographic area within New York State. The vast majority of geography in New York State, especially in the central, northern and western regions of the state, is reminiscent of Michigan and/or western New England.
Pennsylvania was initially settled and developed by an entirely different group of people than the states along the northern tier of the United States. Accordingly, the architecture, culture and patterns of community settlement and development are different in Pennsylvania, relative to Vermont, New York, Michigan, etc. For example, stone and Tudor-style houses are much more common in Pennsylvania than the states further north.
After New England Yankees exhausted all arable farmland in the core New England states, they began migrating westward. First, they settled throughout New York State. Then, one generation later, they fanned out across the Upper Midwest. That is the reason why people in Vermont and western Massachusetts have similar accents to people in Upstate New York and the Upper Midwest.
And of course, Long Island is part of the Outer Lands archipelagic region, which also includes Cape Cod and the nearby islands (i.e., Block Island, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket). Those land formations form a cultural region with their own identity that is distinct from nearby New England and New York City, never mind far-away Pennsylvania.
In terms of the bolded, some parts of these regions can look like PA in terms of having hills and valleys, as well as the look of some of the towns/cities. A place like Cortland comes to mind as a small NY city that would fit in more with PA. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6000...7i16384!8i8192
New York City covers an exceptionally small geographic area within New York State. The vast majority of geography in New York State, especially in the central, northern and western regions of the state, is reminiscent of Michigan and/or western New England.
Pennsylvania was initially settled and developed by an entirely different group of people than the states along the northern tier of the United States. Accordingly, the architecture, culture and patterns of community settlement and development are different in Pennsylvania, relative to Vermont, New York, Michigan, etc. For example, stone and Tudor-style houses are much more common in Pennsylvania than the states further north.
After New England Yankees exhausted all arable farmland in the core New England states, they began migrating westward. First, they settled throughout New York State. Then, one generation later, they fanned out across the Upper Midwest. That is the reason why people in Vermont and western Massachusetts have similar accents to people in Upstate New York and the Upper Midwest.
And of course, Long Island is part of the Outer Lands archipelagic region, which also includes Cape Cod and the nearby islands (i.e., Block Island, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket). Those land formations form a cultural region with their own identity that is distinct from nearby New England and New York City, never mind far-away Pennsylvania.
... And? New York City is by far the most influential and important metro area in New York State. That it is "an exceptionally small geographic area" is irrelevant to its significance. And when you look at the metro area, of course it is not small. Its relative similarity to Philadelphia eclipses anything in New England, including Boston, and that is a very important fact in this discussion.
Stone and Tudor houses are only disproportionately popular in the Southeast portion of PA. Otherwise, the percentage is quite similar. This is a relatively unimportant fact in this discussion.
Despite some of the similarities and differences in who settled Pennsylvania and who settled New York, to this day, the differences have little bearing on what draws the two states together.
Interesting theory, but I find people in Vermont to talk just as similar to me as do people from rural Pennsylvania.
So, you don't see the NYC-Philadelphia connection? How about the Appalachian cultural connection? Or the Great Lakes/Rust Belt connection? How about the cultural cohesion between the New York-Pennsylvania border, which is sharply contrasted by the very big difference you feel when you transition from say the ADK to Vermont?
What cultural cohesion there is amongst the "Outer Lands archipelagic region" pales in comparison to how the majority of New York State, by both geographic size and population, is more similar to Pennsylvania. I will give the Capital Region and "Outer Lands archipelagic region" (admittedly the first time I heard of this region, thanks! ) to New England. To all else, just compare statewide electoral maps, or visit any of our major cities, mid-sized cities, and rural areas, and you would give it to PA. Growing up in New York State, we always had the joke that Pennsylvania was just discount-NY. Well, I am now living my discounted dream.
If you travel 25 miles north of New York City, you will find that people speak in accents more similar to those heard in western New England, especially Connecticut, than those heard in Pennsylvania. By the time you get to Saratoga Springs in the north or Oneonta in the west, all traces of the Mid-Atlantic accent have fully dissipated, and many of the place names have evolved from Dutch to English. Additionally, the churches in the wildwood tend to be Congregationalist or Methodist, instead of Dutch Reformed.
I do not care how many people live in New York City and/or how significance its influence is nationally or globally, the core New York State cultural area is centered along the Erie Canal, which closely parallels Interstate 90 in modern times and was heavily settled by New Englanders. Most people in New York City do not feel connected to New York State (and vice versa) because of the vast cultural differences between the two areas, which stem from both cultural and geographic distance.
And despite the influence that New York City has on the country and world in modern times, the Erie Canal corridor was the staging area for the entire Upper Midwest and, subsequently, the northern West (i.e., Montana, Idaho and Washington). People in Buffalo and Rochester use the term “pop” for “soda,” just like people in Spokane, WA.
If you travel 25 miles north of New York City, you will find that people speak in accents more similar to those heard in western New England, especially Connecticut, than those heard in Pennsylvania. By the time you get to Saratoga Springs in the north or Oneonta in the west, all traces of the Mid-Atlantic accent have fully dissipated, and many of the place names have evolved from Dutch to English. Additionally, the churches in the wildwood tend to be Congregationalist or Methodist, instead of Dutch Reformed.
I do not care how many people live in New York City and/or how significance its influence is nationally or globally, the core New York State cultural area is centered along the Erie Canal, which closely parallels Interstate 90 in modern times and was heavily settled by New Englanders. Most people in New York City do not feel connected to New York State (and vice versa) because of the vast cultural differences between the two areas, which stem from both cultural and geographic distance.
And despite the influence that New York City has on the country and world in modern times, the Erie Canal corridor was the staging area for the entire Upper Midwest and, subsequently, the northern West (i.e., Montana, Idaho and Washington). People in Buffalo and Rochester use the term “pop” for “soda,” just like people in Spokane, WA.
As someone very familiar with Westchester and Dutchess County. I STRONGLY disagree with this.
NYC - mix of both Boston and Philly, depending on the neighborhood, but I'd say overall more like Boston
Long Island - southern Connecticut
Westchester - North Jersey and southern Connecticut (definitely more New England than PA)
Lower Hudson east (Putnam Dutchess Columbia) - Northwest Connecticut
Lower Hudson west (Rockland Orange Sullivan Ulster) - Northeast PA Poconos area
Albany Troy Schenectady Capital region - Western Massachusetts
Far Upstate NY towards Ottawa Canada - Northern New England especially Vermont
Finger Lakes area Syracuse Utica area - mixed bag, due to being between Albany and Buffalo/Rochester, maybe more similar to Pa and Ohio due to being slightly more like Buffalo than Albany
Southern Tier Binghamton area and westward on top of PA border - northern/northeast Pennsylvania
Western NY Buffalo Rochester Niagara area - Northwest PA and Northeast Ohio, very similar to Cleveland and Erie
If you travel 25 miles north of New York City, you will find that people speak in accents more similar to those heard in western New England, especially Connecticut, than those heard in Pennsylvania. By the time you get to Saratoga Springs in the north or Oneonta in the west, all traces of the Mid-Atlantic accent have fully dissipated, and many of the place names have evolved from Dutch to English. Additionally, the churches in the wildwood tend to be Congregationalist or Methodist, instead of Dutch Reformed.
This is a very specific and relatively small portion of NYS that is more similar to New England.
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I do not care how many people live in New York City and/or how significance its influence is nationally or globally, the core New York State cultural area is centered along the Erie Canal, which closely parallels Interstate 90 in modern times and was heavily settled by New Englanders. Most people in New York City do not feel connected to New York State (and vice versa) because of the vast cultural differences between the two areas, which stem from both cultural and geographic distance.
Sorry, but it does not matter if you want to care about New York City in this discussion just to advance your argument. New York City is unequivocally in New York State. Most people in NYC understand that their state government is the NYS government. For the few that do not understand that, they should enroll in a civics class. Also, for weekend summer getaways, the ADK, Catskills, and Finger Lakes are all very popular for New Yorkers, and yes, these are all different parts of New York. Obviously, downstate and upstate are very different in New York. It's all New York. In fact, the OP explicitly mentions NY's, PA's, and New England's largest cities as included in the discussion.
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And despite the influence that New York City has on the country and world in modern times, the Erie Canal corridor was the staging area for the entire Upper Midwest and, subsequently, the northern West (i.e., Montana, Idaho and Washington). People in Buffalo and Rochester use the term “pop” for “soda,” just like people in Spokane, WA.
The Erie Canal was important and has long-lasting impacts. It does not make the whole of New York more similar to New England than Pennsylvania. The pop/soda thing is really dying off, at least in my part of NYS. Back in the 90s/00s I remember hearing "pop" in my part of NY all of the time. Now, it's soda.
You avoid addressing all of the cultural connections between NY and PA, and I wonder why. You have not addressed the crossover of Appalachian/Great Lakes culture, and you have not addressed both state's history of Rust Belt disinvestment. That, and you are trying to void NYC's place in this discussion, which sorry, is nonsensical.
Have you ever been to Olean, NY and Bradford, PA? Binghamton and Scranton? How about places like Woodhull, NY and Elkland, PA? If there were no official state markers, one would find these places culturally coherent. Compare that with say Whitehall, NY and Rutland, VT. In the former, you've got a plurality of people who support their local NRA-endorsed Republican congresswoman, whereas a plurality of Rutland supports moderate-to-progressive congress-people. In the former, the culture is dominated by long-standing families who have been in the area for generations. The latter is a more culturally heterogenous bunch, in which many more recent transplant families (including second generations Vermonters) from larger urban areas reside. Western/Northern New England is one of the few moderate-to-progressive rural parts of our nation. NY's political and socioeconomic makeup is much more similar to Pennsylvania.
Last edited by Muinteoir; 08-21-2022 at 06:22 AM..
Reason: typo
How is NYC more similar to Boston than Philadelphia? Also, I was just in Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow, NY, and it could easily be thrown onto the Main Line and fit right in. Not that there isn't a connection to Connecticut (the prevailing single family home architectural style is certainly more similar to Connecticut), but much of Westchester is not too different from our affluent suburban areas.
I'm definitely not seeing the lower Hudson Valley or even most of Long Island (aside from the some of the towns on the immediate coast), for that matter, as New England. It feels extremely Mid-Atlantic to me--the vibe, the look, the people. Consider where the two Levittowns are located, for example--Long Island and Bucks County, PA.
Once you get around Albany, the feel/culture begins to shift and lean towards New England, but that's a far cry from the NY Metro.
Once again, NY and PA were grouped as Middle Colonies together for a reason, and the NYC metro has always been much more oriented towards the Philadelphia area and points south, rather than north.
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) to New England. To all else, just compare statewide electoral maps, or visit any of our major cities, mid-sized cities, and rural areas, and you would give it to PA. Growing up in New York State, we always had the joke that Pennsylvania was just discount-NY. Well, I am now living my discounted dream.
