Phoenix, AZ vs. Denver, CO (live, better, place, people)

[locolife]

Originally Posted by ScrappyJoe

True for now. I just assumed that it could simply benefit by proxy if California "comes back" in the way that the previous poster mentioned. At least if WFH remains strong.

This thread turned completely off topic.

[deepblue38]

California people invading Phoenix vs Denver thread. Let's see, what does this remind me of

[49erfan916]

How did CA get into this topic? lol.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by 49erfan916

How did CA get into this topic? lol.

Exactly, no clue haha

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by deepblue38

California people invading Phoenix vs Denver thread. Let's see, what does this remind me of

Reminds me of something Phoenix has been experiencing since the 50s, and Denver since about 15 years ago.

Originally Posted by boomtown boi

I think what's happening near the 38th & Blake station in Denver is a good model, and I wish that was the standard throughout the Front Range. That kind of TOD would make a big dent in our car dependency, but it would also require us to build out the transit system in a smart way. I don't see that happening here currently, while our neighbors in AZ seem to be getting their sh*t together and planning it correctly.

Originally Posted by annie_himself

The 38th and Blake Station and surrounding development is nice but its in an already dense part of the city.
I expect most future stations to look a bit more like Federal Center Station, especially out on the A line and the N line.

Phoenix’s light rail might not have as many lines but at least they weren’t built in freeway ROW which has poor transit connectivity, and poor cycling/walkability scores like RTD. If Phoenix chose to build like RTD we’d have way more lines and miles in comparison to Denver’s existing lines. Quality over quantity folks.

Nonetheless we do have one planned extension for our light rail that adopts the RTD model, our I-10W/Capitol line is expected to follow along the north side of I-10 starting from the I-17 loop “Main Stack” and go to about 79th avenue after passing our state capitol from Downtown Phoenix. This is dumb for many reasons: the I-10 is a pedestrian/cycling/transit connection disaster (which is what freeways and interstates are supposed to be, by design), and a couple blocks north is McDowell Road, which is in the top 5 of our busiest and popular bus routes. A mile north of McDowell is Thomas Road, our busiest bus route. To send the light rail down McDowell or even better, Thomas, will not only interact better with the community and transit connections, but there are still spots for park and rides here to alleviate I-10 traffic from West Valley (assuming that’s the goal). And to move it a few blocks north shouldn’t significantly raise costs while significantly raising ridership and urban development, which is beneficial economically for the city as a whole.

However if the goal is to alleviate car traffic from the I-10, a heavy rail system would be even better. There just so happens to be Union Pacific tracks that run parallel to the I-10 the entire way from Tonopah directly into Downtown Phoenix with no deviation about a mile and a half south. Good thing Phoenix also has this planned, for a commuter rail system exclusively for Phoenix and an intercity that will connect with Tucson. In addition, Amtrak will be relocating their station to Downtown Phoenix and later connect to Southern California, meaning three lines would be using this heavy rail corridor. That’s why the I-10W/Capitol is a poor model, and why Denver’s is poor for the same reason. Light rail is not meant to be used like a heavy rail commuter/intercity rail system, it’s meant to serve urban suburban arterial roads that are very busy. When you factor in that light rail trains do not have the speed or passenger capacity (smaller cars) of heavy rail, you are only crippling the potential of that system. RTD would be much better with heavy rail rolling stock, and putting light rail on its most popular transit bus routes. In Denver I heard Speer is a very busy road, maybe that’s one of them.

[boomtown boi]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Phoenix’s light rail might not have as many lines but at least they weren’t built in freeway ROW which has poor transit connectivity, and poor cycling/walkability scores like RTD. If Phoenix chose to build like RTD we’d have way more lines and miles in comparison to Denver’s existing lines. Quality over quantity folks.

Nonetheless we do have one planned extension for our light rail that adopts the RTD model, our I-10W/Capitol line is expected to follow along the north side of I-10 starting from the I-17 loop “Main Stack” and go to about 79th avenue after passing our state capitol from Downtown Phoenix. This is dumb for many reasons: the I-10 is a pedestrian/cycling/transit connection disaster (which is what freeways and interstates are supposed to be, by design), and a couple blocks north is McDowell Road, which is in the top 5 of our busiest and popular bus routes. A mile north of McDowell is Thomas Road, our busiest bus route. To send the light rail down McDowell or even better, Thomas, will not only interact better with the community and transit connections, but there are still spots for park and rides here to alleviate I-10 traffic from West Valley (assuming that’s the goal). And to move it a few blocks north shouldn’t significantly raise costs while significantly raising ridership and urban development, which is beneficial economically for the city as a whole.

However if the goal is to alleviate car traffic from the I-10, a heavy rail system would be even better. There just so happens to be Union Pacific tracks that run parallel to the I-10 the entire way from Tonopah directly into Downtown Phoenix with no deviation about a mile and a half south. Good thing Phoenix also has this planned, for a commuter rail system exclusively for Phoenix and an intercity that will connect with Tucson. In addition, Amtrak will be relocating their station to Downtown Phoenix and later connect to Southern California, meaning three lines would be using this heavy rail corridor. That’s why the I-10W/Capitol is a poor model, and why Denver’s is poor for the same reason. Light rail is not meant to be used like a heavy rail commuter/intercity rail system, it’s meant to serve urban suburban arterial roads that are very busy. When you factor in that light rail trains do not have the speed or passenger capacity (smaller cars) of heavy rail, you are only crippling the potential of that system. RTD would be much better with heavy rail rolling stock, and putting light rail on its most popular transit bus routes. In Denver I heard Coors is a very busy road, maybe that’s one of them.

Interesting observations! I think you're thinking of Colfax, and yes light rail or even BRT would make a ton of sense there. Unfortunately the local govt is just throwing more money at feasibility studies for a Colfax line, meanwhile our much smaller neighbor Albuquerque already has the ART line built and running on their equivalent thoroughfare, Central Ave. Awesome for them, embarrassing for us.

EDIT: I see you meant Speer - that also would be a smart place for light rail, as it would connect downtown with Cherry Creek plus dense areas between, but sadly that isn't even a proposed route yet. Not an RTD priority.

[MrDog1993]

Phoenix is a monument to man's arrogance.



Politics doesn't matter: while far more purple, Phoenix is now blue enough to outweigh the rest of the county (and along with Tucson, the state) and will likely continue to trend in that direction. But if the climate warms even slightly that could be a physical danger to Phoenix. Imagine a power outage during the summer and watch as petty political tribalism suddenly doesn't matter quite as much. Denver literally rises above such concerns. Also I don't want to die of heat stroke.

[deepblue38]

[quote=MrDog1993;60837623]Phoenix is a monument to man's arrogance.



Politics doesn't matter: while far more purple, Phoenix is now blue enough to outweigh the rest of the county (and along with Tucson, the state) and will likely continue to trend in that direction. But if the climate warms even slightly that could be a physical danger to Phoenix. Imagine a power outage during the summer and watch as petty political tribalism suddenly doesn't matter quite as much. Denver literally rises above such concerns. Also I don't want to die of heat stroke.[/QUOTE

Freezing to death wouldn't be any fun either.

[deepblue38]

[quote=Prickly Pear;60837526]Reminds me of something Phoenix has been experiencing since the 50s, and Denver since about 15 years ago.


That's exactly what I was implying.

[MaricopaCountyResident]

I'm not sure why transients are choosing Denver over Phoenix. Me personally, I can't stand Denver, mainly because it's so freezing cold and snowy. I want to visit Denver, but I'd do so in the summer, when there is no snow. Phoenix for me because there is no snow and the heat is better than cold.