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I get what you're saying and i personally don't love the idea, but why is that loser behavior? If a city believes it's in its best interest, I may disagree, but I wouldn't call it loser behavior, especially when it's becoming common practice. Since 2000, 19 NFL stadiums have been built. Only 3 were built entirely with private money. Meaning at least half the NFL is receiving taxpayer support. And you know that number will surely go up.
The team should need the city not vice versa. Jacobs and Kraft built their own venues and the Sox were stuck in Fenway cause they need Boston more than Boston needs them. Because the market is so strong,
Pittsburgh needs to pay the Penguins to stay or Minneapolis needs to pay the Vikings because the fans can’t do it themselves.
Have they? I didn't know that.
I thought the Rockets shared the Toyota Center with Houston's Hockey Team until ten years ago when they moved away.
Not sure what the poster means by Houston has 30 years to build a stadium and didn't. Houston built the Stadium for Basketball and Hockey just 20 years ago. Around the same time they built the NFL stadium and a few years before they built the MLS stadium.
I don't think stadiums are an issue. Houston has 3 stadiums downtown and the NFL and 2 College stadiums are nearby on the rail making for 6 stadiums near downtown on the rail.
There is an enthusiasm issue though. Even the Astros had difficulty building back it's fanbase despite 2 world series wins.
The Rockets too are popular when they are winning but not so much when they are not
The Texans have a great tailgate culture, but enthusiasm in the stadium is so so. Even with one of the more entertaining QBs this season.
The Dynamos came out with a bang, and won the MLS cup in 06 and 07 and was 2nd in 2011 and 2012. But enthusiasm there follow win cycles.
Despite the enthusiasm gaps, I think having the stadiums downtown has helped with downtown activity. The Astros is planning their Astros Village around their stadium and the Toyota Center is definitely due for upgrades.
UH athletics has grown quite a bit so the foundation is there for Houston to be huge in both professional and College sports if they can get that enthusiasm train going.
I was throwing an arbitrary number. It was more of an estimated time to coincide with the NHL's aggressive expansion into sunbelt markets (1990s). If the NHL was truly trying to get into the Houston market, it would have happened years ago, evident by you mentioning all the stadium deals that have been done Houston in the NHL expansion timeline.
I would assume if/when the Coyotes move, Houston will be the city. But my original comment was meant to address that having all big 4 pro teams is due to more than market size, and that's why I mentioned Houston.
The team should need the city not vice versa. Jacobs and Kraft built their own venues and the Sox were stuck in Fenway cause they need Boston more than Boston needs them. Because the market is so strong,
Pittsburgh needs to pay the Penguins to stay or Minneapolis needs to pay the Vikings because the fans can’t do it themselves.
In theory you're right. But fans are short for fanatic, so it's not purely logical. Often times a city does need its team.
You tend to see less public subsidies the larger the market. So, the examples you provide would reflect that. I think you're looking at this through the lenses of a large market, but the big 4 leagues aren't made up of a majority of large markets.
St Louis is probably in top 20. But I think reasons why they wouldn't be higher in my book, is because the city does not have NFL or NBA. Two major teams with zero representation on a major league level.
Granted, St Louis has the storied Cardinals, with a ton of support and fan base, as well as the Stanley Cup winning NHL St Louis Blues. And then also, the brand spankin' new MLS team.
But not having NFL or NBA is a major gap, preventing St Louis from making a top 10 showing.
I don't think St. Louis needs NFL or NBA to be in the top 10. The Cardinals have been a team since 1882 and continue to hold a huge fan base. St. Louis is arguably the #1 baseball town. (I am one of a few survivors who saw the St. Louis Browns play as a kid.) The Blues have a huge fan base in the city and are in full competition for the cup most years. The new "City" MLS team is breaking records among all of the MLS teams -- and it's a team owned by women. The city's plan to install the MLS stadium downtown (along with Busch Stadium and the Blues' Enterprise Center) was a stroke of genius. I don't think NFL can compete very well with what is already happening in the city. There have been two attempts (Cardinals and Rams). It is probably the same with NBA. There are local and state college teams that draw attention and I'm sure there is a level of surreptitious fandom for the KC Chiefs. I left St. Louis decades ago but still follow the teams.
I was throwing an arbitrary number. It was more of an estimated time to coincide with the NHL's aggressive expansion into sunbelt markets (1990s). If the NHL was truly trying to get into the Houston market, it would have happened years ago, evident by you mentioning all the stadium deals that have been done Houston in the NHL expansion timeline.
I would assume if/when the Coyotes move, Houston will be the city. But my original comment was meant to address that having all big 4 pro teams is due to more than market size, and that's why I mentioned Houston.
With NHL expansion in mind, Houston's Toyota Center, currently home to the NBA's Houston Rockets, is poised for a substantial $30 million renovation. This transformative project will focus on the installation of ice-making equipment essential for creating NHL-quality ice, potentially paving the way for the venue to host NHL games.
The owner of the Rockets have also signaled that he wants to own an NHL team.
Not sure why they would make Hockey upgrades without a commitment from a team. But all of that supports your assertion that if the NHL was looking to expand the infrastructure and the welcome wagon won't be problems.
Chicago
NYC
St. Louis
Minneapolis
Cleveland
Atlanta
DC
Dallas
Houston
Miami
KC
SF
LA
I’m absolutely putting Dallas in that 2nd tier. Probably among the top of that second tier alongside Chicago, St Louis, and NYC. Dallas is being heavily underrated in this thread. A very loyal NFL base, decent support for hockey and probably the most support of any southern city got NHL, still selling out the AAC when the Mavs were bad pre Luka and not great but not bad attendance for MLB. Also a good college sports market, host plenty of events domestically and internationally (and could host the world cup final in 2026).
I will go as far as to say DFW is the best sports metro in the South.
It would be a national embarrassment to put the WC final in a stadium without decent transit, or that's surrounded by tons of surface parking.
American-Football stadiums with WC-required stats are generally not integrated well with their cities, including the best stadiums and the biggest cities.
Seattle won't get the final, and the stadium is in a gritty area, but at least it's walkable and has good transit.
It would be a national embarrassment to put the WC final in a stadium without decent transit, or that's surrounded by tons of surface parking.
American-Football stadiums with WC-required stats are generally not integrated well with their cities, including the best stadiums and the biggest cities.
Seattle won't get the final, and the stadium is in a gritty area, but at least it's walkable and has good transit.
It’s gonna be New York or Philly I think. But honestly Atlanta has the best location for a NFL stadium of the host cities, at least in America
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