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that was why i think estl doesn't look worse. now, why i think estl doesn't FEEL worse.
simple...in estl, the place was quite (no gunshots, people arguing out loud, no loud music etc), of the few people i did see there, the adults looked moreso like hard working people just trying to survive and the teens outside seemed like they were having fun. and unlike what one poster said awhile back about estl having no nice areas, id say atleast 15% of estl looked nice. the other 85% was just neglected. they were building some suburban like houses on one side of town when i was there, so it isn't all bad. but yea, east st louis just doesn't have that dangerous feel about it at all. some people may go there and are terrified so its all up to your perception of the place. if you go there taking the crime stats to heart, you'll be fearing for your life before you even get there.
yea, ok. so what exactly did you see when you went there (and im guessing you have) that made it look or feel worse than any other run down, crime filled area like gary, flint, detroit, camden etc?
How about a complete lack of maintained infrastructure and not even a bare hint of a middle class?
For all of its problems, Camden's CBD is still mostly intact and not crumbling into the ground even if it seems eerily quiet, a redeveloped waterfront, a small outpost of Rutgers University, Campbell's (the soup folks) is headquartered there and has invested in the city, and Camden is right across the river from a major city that has issues but also has a lot going for it. Now, I'm not saying Camden is going to have a miraculous turnaround tomorrow, but I also wouldn't write the place off.
Detroit, for all its problems, has a huge state university, two other universities with about 5,000 students each, a handful of major corporate headquarters, some upper-middle-class sections, sports stadiums that hold up to 75,000 people, and its downtown has managed to cling to life and remain relatively vital. While much of Detroit appears to have no prayer, the city can still survive and even have some decent quality of life if it were to downsize and retrench around downtown and the university areas while letting nature reclaim its abandoned areas.
Whereas ESL's main assets are liquor stores, strip clubs, and convenient access to a major city whose own problems rival those of Detroit. Oh yeah, and a casino that appears to have done nothing for the city, which is often the case when a casino gets built in a distressed area because the revenues disappear into the very same black hole of corruption and waste that help keep these places distressed in the first place.
Again, it's hard to say which is the worst between ESTL and Camden. This is very similar to when we were comparing Philly and Detroits bad areas. Philly of course being more similar to Camden and Detroit being more similar ESTL.
On one hand you have a very dense bad area with people all around (Camden) and on the other hand you have a more abandoned area that looks more like a ghosttown (ESTL).
I've only been through ESTL when I was traveling through St. Louis briefly but I've been through Camden extensively. IMO Camden definitely seemed like the more dangerous, but at the same time Camden has a lot more going for it than ESTL so I would rather live in Camden. ESTL really has nothing going for it and resembles a rural meets urban slum. The stats say ESTL is the most dangerous. Kind of like an apples to oranges comparison though, it's a hard call. They're both undoubtedly very rough though and among the worst. Sad to see what happened to those cities and many other cities/areas across the country to a lesser extent.
How about a complete lack of maintained infrastructure and not even a bare hint of a middle class?
and camden, gary and flint do?
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and Camden is right across the river from a major city that has issues but also has a lot going for it.
so does east st louis. im sure EVERYONE in estl goes into st louis for shopping, school (college), things to do etc. their not just stranded in the middle of nowhere without hope. and about you saying estl has no universities or companies there...what city of barely 20,000 does? camden has about 80,000 people and detroit has about 800,000 people. so of course their going to have atleast i nice CBD or a university. but estl is not unique in its lack of investment. what town do you know under 20,000 people that has companies headquartered there, universities there, a nice CBD etc? every small town of that size faces a lack of maintenance and investment. it should come as no surprise that estl does too.
east st louis actually does have alot going for it. its water front is being redeveloped and actually has the second tallest water fountain in the world called the Gateway Geyser. they built a new library and a new city hall in 2001. they have a casino called the Casino Queen. the city is actually home to several companies. the city is building many new homes and restoring old ones.
they are building a new water front park.... Struggling E. St. Louis sees renewal from park - USATODAY.com
contrary to what i previously believed, the city is home to a university called Southern Illinois University and the surrounding area is restored.
theres alot more things being built and/or restored too. the mayor of the city called this decade "one of renewal". i didn't see any of the things i listed when i was there but i'll take pictures next time i go there.
Yes, Camden and Gary do. I don't know a thing about Flint. Go check out Miller Beach in Gary or Cooper Grant in Camden and then tell me where I can find the equivalent in East St. Louis.
And St. Louis is almost as much of a basketcase as Detroit, so being right across the river from STL isn't quite as much of an asset as being across the river from Philly.
Bottom line, nobody is surprised that ESL has a high crime rate but you. "ZOMG they have a really big water fountain, how could things have gone so wrong when they have a WATER FOUNTAIN?? "
Hardly anyone goes to St. Louis to shop. They go to the suburbs. Philly, for all it's problems, has a thriving downtown ( www.centercityphilla.com) with approx. 2200 shops/restaurants.
Bottom line, nobody is surprised that ESL has a high crime rate but you. "ZOMG they have a really big water fountain, how could things have gone so wrong when they have a WATER FOUNTAIN??
a water front being redeveloped is a big deal for any city, especially a very small one like east st louis. it shows that east st louis is being invested in and that the local government actually cares. i noticed you ignored all the other positives that i listed like new housing being built and old housing being restored. like the city building a new city hall and restoring all the run down buildings and filling in overgrown lots etc. oh yea, and that water front park being revitalized made it into MANY national news papers and on many national news stations, so yea its kind of a big deal.
i have admitted many times so far that east st louis has a high crime rate, but the city just isn't as bad and run down as you think. a high crime rate doesn't always come with 3rd world living conditions and vice versa.
GDK you are correct. While East St. louis has it's problems, they are reinvesting in the city. New homes, rehabbing old buildings, gov't buildings and other reinvestment are all happening. And there are alot of abandoned properties and empty fields. It won't become paradice anytime soon but at least it's not burning.
The crime rate is higher because people come there to commit the crimes. It's not all done by the residents. Some residents are trying and doing fine, some struggling, some are not doing anything.
Also ESTL while a city is mainly a suburb of st. louis' east side. Unless you know your way around you don't know what city you're in. ESTL, Lovejoy, Cahokia, etc... Brooklyn, Il for example borders ESTL. They write their own rules/laws regarding strip clubs and bar hours. To the best of my knowledge ESTL doesn't even have strip clubs.
And in my opinion the worst neighborhoods need density. ESTL doesn't have that anymore.
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