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If you can't pass a basic algebra class you don't deserve a BA. We are not talking difficult math. College Algebra is not difficult. If a person is intellectually inclined and academically motivated that person should be able to muster up a C in Algebra. A person just needs to PASS. They don't need to get an A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006
Exactly. My wife is terrible at math and was able to pass Business Calculus. You don't need to be an expert to pass a class, just understand the basic concepts and you can get by with a C.
College Algebra is math you should understand as a Junior in HS.
And you all keep spouting your "shoulds" yet I am telling you I was unable to understand it. I was a straight A student who loved school until ninth grade, and among other things, the lack of ability to understand Algebra was one of the things that discouraged any interest I had in school after that. I did not have an understanding teacher, which did not help matters any. A classmate tried to help me, but I would end up just copying what she wrote down so I could pass.
In 11th grade, I started attending a vocational school to take cosmetology for half a day (and the other half took English, History, and gym at my regular high school). Unfortunately, I sucked at cutting hair, sort of a basic you need to become a hairdresser, lol, but at least I was able to graduate from high school. Eventually I went to secretarial school, a trade I could learn without harming anyone.
Now personally, I cannot understand why so many people cannot spell a word once they've seen it written, since you can easily call it up into your memory and read off the letters by seeing it inside your forehead. Not everyone knows what I mean by that, however.
It is not difficult to spell, not at all, yet so many don't seem to be able to master it--even when they have a college degree. Part of my job entails correcting bad English in papers written by lawyers.
I think I am probably one of the people you referred to in your OP, sheena, because I wrote on here about not finishing college because I am unable to grasp basic algebra. Failed the remedial classes and simply did not have the money to take them again, especially since I had my doubts that yet another math class would somehow magically make me able to understand it.
I CAN do ARITHMETIC. I can add numbers in my head, do percentages, fractions, whatever. That is not the math that's the problem. It is algebra and above that simply makes no sense to me. OR, if I sit in a class or go for extra help to have someone painstakingly explain it, I think for a moment that I got it, but within an hour, it's gone. It's just gone.
I have always been an avid reader. I have had writing published and have been paid for it (but can't quit the day job to write full-time, lol.) I was a trivia whiz before the Trivial Pursuit came out and then kicked myself for not putting what we did for fun into a game form. <snip>.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
And you all keep spouting your "shoulds" yet I am telling you I was unable to understand it. I was a straight A student who loved school until ninth grade, and among other things, the lack of ability to understand Algebra was one of the things that discouraged any interest I had in school after that. I did not have an understanding teacher, which did not help matters any. A classmate tried to help me, but I would end up just copying what she wrote down so I could pass.
In 11th grade, I started attending a vocational school to take cosmetology for half a day (and the other half took English, History, and gym at my regular high school). Unfortunately, I sucked at cutting hair, sort of a basic you need to become a hairdresser, lol, but at least I was able to graduate from high school. Eventually I went to secretarial school, a trade I could learn without harming anyone.
Now personally, I cannot understand why so many people cannot spell a word once they've seen it written, since you can easily call it up into your memory and read off the letters by seeing it inside your forehead. Not everyone knows what I mean by that, however.
It is not difficult to spell, not at all, yet so many don't seem to be able to master it--even when they have a college degree. Part of my job entails correcting bad English in papers written by lawyers.
ALL OF THIS!!!! Especially the bolded parts.. are we the same person!? I could have written all of this though. Well, I never tried cosmetology school. I did go to secretarial school though, or something similar. Back then it was called "business technology" or something like that. Six months of learning typing, phone etiquette, dictaphone, Lotus 123, Word Perfect, etc.
I am surely giving away my age with that!
Problem is, I quickly learned that I loathe that sort of work. Oh, I was good at it. Typed 90WPM and numerical keystrokes per hour around 15,000, savvy with all sorts of admin. assistant duties, but I never pursued it up to any well paying level because it just killed my soul. I just focused on data entry jobs where I could work in a solitary fashion and pay the bills.
As my Grandmother would say, that's neither here nor there. I was nodding my head in total agreement with your comments on spelling. Like you, I can do arithmetic. It is algebra that is the problem.
Now, this thread has been very busy lately and I am too busy (and too lazy!) to go see who exactly said what, but I wanted to mention a few things:
College Algebra is a non-remedial course. There are plenty of "intro to algebra" and similar classes that may be remedial that lead up to College Algebra but they are different and at a lower level.
College Algebra is specifically a college level (non-remedial) course and required as part of the core for many degrees.
It is also required for many Associate Degree programs.
Liberal Arts Math (often called "Contemporary Math") is a totally different course, covering an entirely different set of math topics. Someone said something about College Algebra being equal to Liberal Arts Math and they are not at all the same. I've taken both. It is also non-remedial and is often part of the core requirements for SOME Bachelor degree programs and some Associate degree programs as well. It depends on the program, sometimes it will be an option to take one or the other.
Since some STEM majors think college algebra is "remedial", perhaps it makes sense for it or its equivalent to be required for liberal arts graduates. It does give one a working knowledge of math.
I am one of these people who was never good at math, and my chem teacher in college used to be amazed at my math errors. I have some of those symtoms on the dyscalculia website. (I think some of those are common to many people, including those who are proficient in math.) However, a career in nursing, where at least rudimentary math IS necessary, has made me more comfortable with math. I can tell I have more "math sense" than a lot of people I know.
ALL OF THIS!!!! Especially the bolded parts.. are we the same person!? I could have written all of this though. Well, I never tried cosmetology school. I did go to secretarial school though, or something similar. Back then it was called "business technology" or something like that. Six months of learning typing, phone etiquette, dictaphone, Lotus 123, Word Perfect, etc.
I am surely giving away my age with that!
Problem is, I quickly learned that I loathe that sort of work. Oh, I was good at it. Typed 90WPM and numerical keystrokes per hour around 15,000, savvy with all sorts of admin. assistant duties, but I never pursued it up to any well paying level because it just killed my soul. I just focused on data entry jobs where I could work in a solitary fashion and pay the bills.
As my Grandmother would say, that's neither here nor there. I was nodding my head in total agreement with your comments on spelling. Like you, I can do arithmetic. It is algebra that is the problem.
Now, this thread has been very busy lately and I am too busy (and too lazy!) to go see who exactly said what, but I wanted to mention a few things:
College Algebra is a non-remedial course. There are plenty of "intro to algebra" and similar classes that may be remedial that lead up to College Algebra but they are different and at a lower level.
College Algebra is specifically a college level (non-remedial) course and required as part of the core for many degrees.
It is also required for many Associate Degree programs.
Liberal Arts Math (often called "Contemporary Math") is a totally different course, covering an entirely different set of math topics. Someone said something about College Algebra being equal to Liberal Arts Math and they are not at all the same. I've taken both. It is also non-remedial and is often part of the core requirements for SOME Bachelor degree programs and some Associate degree programs as well. It depends on the program, sometimes it will be an option to take one or the other.
Yes, you are giving away your age, and you are somewhat younger than I am, because just when I was graduating from my year-long course in secretarial school at the end of 1978, they were introducing a new course in something called "Word Processing" at the school. (I am 54 years old, by the way.)
I was not that great at being a secretary--not meaning technically, because I was wonderful at typing and spelling, and I worked for engineers, most of whom were not great writers, so I had to fix their correspondence and reports for them and they loved that. I just took on work above the secretarial level when others were on vacation or out for some reason, and within five years or so I had been promoted out of the clerical ranks into what they called "junior management". If you didn't have a degree, there was a way to get around it--you took an exam before a panel of senior managers, and in order to be eligible to do that, you had to pass a certain score in the Math, History, and English CLEP exams. I passed the Math CLEP with flying colors--it was multiple choice, so I could pick what looked like the best answer without having to show how I got there, which I could not possibly have done.
Re the "remedial" reference--yes, that is exactly what discouraged me from finishing college at night. When I started taking night classes at the college, they gave me entrance exams in math and English. English was a piece of cake, of course, but the math-well, they gave me all this scrap paper to work out problems on, and when I was done, I hadn't used any because I hadn't the foggiest idea what I was supposed to do. The math problems made no sense to me whatsoever. I didn't know where to begin on how to solve them--algebra had been in 9th grade, and I was now in my early 20s and it hadn't magically found its way into my head since that time. Therefore, they decreed that I must take a non-credit remedial course, costing $350 or so, before I could even take the basic college math course. I failed the remedial course. I went to every class. I stayed afterwards to ask for more explanation. Nothing worked. It just made no sense to me whatsoever OR I would think it did, and then when I got home and went to do homework, it was like trying to read ancient hieroglyphics again. It just did not stick.
Since some STEM majors think college algebra is "remedial", perhaps it makes sense for it or its equivalent to be required for liberal arts graduates. It does give one a working knowledge of math.
I am one of these people who was never good at math, and my chem teacher in college used to be amazed at my math errors. I have some of those symtoms on the dyscalculia website. (I think some of those are common to many people, including those who are proficient in math.) However, a career in nursing, where at least rudimentary math IS necessary, has made me more comfortable with math. I can tell I have more "math sense" than a lot of people I know.
I don't fit the description of dyscalculia, though. I can certainly do arithmetic. As a matter of fact, part of my job entails overseeing a scoring process wherein criteria is weighted by a certain percentage. There is a score for each criterion that is then multiplied by the weight to get the rating for that criterion and then all three or four criteria ratings are added together to get the final score. I will usually do that on paper while someone else in the room does it on a calculator, and I play my own little game in my head trying to beat them to the correct total, and I usually win. I feel as if it keeps my brain in shape to do it in my head rather than on a calculator. I can also add/subtract/multiply/divide in my head fairly well. I do my own taxes and did them before TurboTax came along.
But algebra--that's a whole different animal. It just does not make any sense to me.
I don't fit the description of dyscalculia, though. I can certainly do arithmetic. As a matter of fact, part of my job entails overseeing a scoring process wherein criteria is weighted by a certain percentage. There is a score for each criterion that is then multiplied by the weight to get the rating for that criterion and then all three or four criteria ratings are added together to get the final score. I will usually do that on paper while someone else in the room does it on a calculator, and I play my own little game in my head trying to beat them to the correct total, and I usually win. I feel as if it keeps my brain in shape to do it in my head rather than on a calculator. I can also add/subtract/multiply/divide in my head fairly well. I do my own taxes and did them before TurboTax came along.
But algebra--that's a whole different animal. It just does not make any sense to me.
LOL. It has been 30 years since I tried and gave up on pursuing a formal degree. I have wondered, though, if I bought a basic algebra book and tried to learn it myself if I could do it. I would not try to pursue a college degree at this age, but it has bugged me all my life that I was unable to learn basic math. Contrary to what some people on here might think, I'm considered more intelligent than your average bear, and so I think I should be able to do it, that there is some point at which the lightbulb would go off and I'd be able to see that 8a(y+m3) really does equal 9X(b-p4).
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone from Great Britain.
Although I am 100-percent pro math, it seems to me that British education, which of course is quite good, has other ideas about general-education requirements. For example, someone in Britain who majors in history ("reads" history, I think they say) takes only courses in history, and perhaps a relevant foreign language. No math, no science, at all.
It could be argued that secondary school in Britain is more rigorous for students destined for college, I suppose, and that the general-educaion requirement of American universities is satisfied earlier in Britain.
Yes, you are giving away your age, and you are somewhat younger than I am, because just when I was graduating from my year-long course in secretarial school at the end of 1978, they were introducing a new course in something called "Word Processing" at the school. (I am 54 years old, by the way.)
I was not that great at being a secretary--not meaning technically, because I was wonderful at typing and spelling, and I worked for engineers, most of whom were not great writers, so I had to fix their correspondence and reports for them and they loved that. I just took on work above the secretarial level when others were on vacation or out for some reason, and within five years or so I had been promoted out of the clerical ranks into what they called "junior management". If you didn't have a degree, there was a way to get around it--you took an exam before a panel of senior managers, and in order to be eligible to do that, you had to pass a certain score in the Math, History, and English CLEP exams. I passed the Math CLEP with flying colors--it was multiple choice, so I could pick what looked like the best answer without having to show how I got there, which I could not possibly have done.
Re the "remedial" reference--yes, that is exactly what discouraged me from finishing college at night. When I started taking night classes at the college, they gave me entrance exams in math and English. English was a piece of cake, of course, but the math-well, they gave me all this scrap paper to work out problems on, and when I was done, I hadn't used any because I hadn't the foggiest idea what I was supposed to do. The math problems made no sense to me whatsoever. I didn't know where to begin on how to solve them--algebra had been in 9th grade, and I was now in my early 20s and it hadn't magically found its way into my head since that time. Therefore, they decreed that I must take a non-credit remedial course, costing $350 or so, before I could even take the basic college math course. I failed the remedial course. I went to every class. I stayed afterwards to ask for more explanation. Nothing worked. It just made no sense to me whatsoever OR I would think it did, and then when I got home and went to do homework, it was like trying to read ancient hieroglyphics again. It just did not stick.
I had a very similar experience.
I dropped out of high school and got my GED and then went on to community college quite quickly, so I was 18/19 at the time and I'd gotten through my junior year of high school before quitting. Theoretically, the math was recent for me but in reality it was not because I did not pass high school algebra. My high school had given me the option to take alternative math classes for my math credits. They were classes like Consumer Math and the like, where I learned about balancing a checkbook, figuring a household budget, calculating the tip for dinner, figuring out how much of a discount you'd get in a 35% off sale. I got A's in those classes. I had taken pre-algebra in 9th grade and done poorly (but passed), then high school algebra was a nightmare and I failed it. However, I had an atrocious teacher that assumed we were all math inclined and spent every class period chit chatting about football!
So, I took entrance/placement tests at the community college that "placed" me in a remedial math course that was, in reality probably a level too high for me and was a very basic algebra course. I was very new to all of this and I didn't know that I could drop a class, so when I started struggling, I just kept sinking. I spent hours in the math lab with school provided tutors, went to every class, talked with my instructor, and even got personalized tutoring outside of school from a friend who had made his way through college, in part, as a paid math tutor.
At one point, I remember him looking at me and shaking his head and saying "I'm sorry, but I don't know what else to do for you. You have some sort of mental block with this, and I can't help you." The problem was, I kept trying, and should have dropped. I ended up with an F in my first semester and since I was only going part time I had a horrible GPA that it took years to bring back up (when I returned later on).
This scenario with the math has been repeated and repeated for me ever since.. and I have tried so many different techniques, instructors, online, hybrid, tutoring, special software, you name it.
If you can't pass a basic algebra class you don't deserve a BA. We are not talking difficult math. College Algebra is not difficult. If a person is intellectually inclined and academically motivated that person should be able to muster up a C in Algebra. A person just needs to PASS. They don't need to get an A.
This got me thinking about a good friend of mine. She has two Bachelor's degrees (Fine Arts and English) and is a High School teacher with 15 years' experience, much of that time spent teaching G&T classes (G&T English, Lit, etc) as well as fine art.
She never passed college algebra.
She took something along the lines of "Liberal Arts Math", or Introductory Math Concepts, when pursuing her first Bachelor's. Her core then transferred at her next school for her 2nd Bachelor's. None of her teacher certification stuff required any further math. She is an amazing teacher, often nominated for Teacher of the Year type awards, but she admitted to me that she'd considered a degree in Sociology instead of English but didn't pursue it because of the required statistics course for that degree (vs. English).
I imagine she'd be surprised to hear that some people believe she doesn't deserve either of her BAs.
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I did go to secretarial school though, or something similar. Back then it was called "business technology" or something like that. Six months of learning typing, phone etiquette, dictaphone, Lotus 123, Word Perfect, etc. 
