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Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,148,041 times
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If she contracted (wrote out stipulations on the type of arrangements, bouquets, 12 buttonaires, garlands etc, the price for the service along with date and time of set up and delivery, and other contractual obligations between her and her contractee) wedding floral arrangements, there is Contractual Law to consider here.
Then we are back to, can Kanye West be forced to contract an appearance or show for a member of an organization he would not normally support (i.e. the KKK)? His personal convictions would probably vehemently prevent him from wanting to enter into any such contract, one would think.
Is Kanye allowed to say no Im not going to do that, or would that be discrimination on his part?
Free market... not government law...
People should be able to sell..or not... to anyone they choose
People should be able to buy ..or not from anyone they choose
People who discriminate will have less business... people who do not will have more
I'm amazed how many people on here rail at the law but roll over immediately for the government stepping in and ordering you to run your private business only in the manner prescribed
So you're all right with someone being refused service because of skin color, someone having to enter a building by the back door because of skin color, separate sections in restaurants for whites and "coloreds"?
Hate to break it to you old man, but it ain't your Grampy's America anymore.
You sure seem to be quite the cheerleader of Big Government and all the Draconian restrictions and penalties that go along with it when it suits your narrow agenda but quite the radical when it doesn't. Typical.
If she contracted (wrote out stipulations on the type of arrangements, bouquets, 12 buttonaires, garlands etc, the price for the service along with date and time of set up and delivery, and other contractual obligations between her and her contractee) wedding floral arrangements, there is Contractual Law to consider here.
Then we are back to, can Kanye West be forced to contract an appearance or show for a member of an organization he would not normally support (i.e. the KKK)? His personal convictions would probably vehemently prevent him from wanting to enter into any such contract, one would think.
Is Kanye allowed to say no Im not going to do that, or would that be discrimination on his part?
When the KKK becomes a protected class, yes it will be considered discrimination for Kanye West to refuse to give them a concert.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,148,041 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by trishguard
When the KKK becomes a protected class, yes it will be considered discrimination for Kanye West to refuse to give them a concert.
What are you talking about? Protected class doesnt apply to Contractual Law. If she prevented the wedding maybe - stood outside screaming at anyone that tried to attend and stuff, you might be right, lol.
It is not against the law to be a White Supremist. We may not particularly enjoy knowing that white, black and all color surpemists exist, but they are not illegal. There is no legal reason to turn down the business.
He's either discriminiating or he isnt.
I think both artists have a right to say no, Im not going to do that - the florist and Kanye. But, we have court actions, so time will tell if Im wrong.
If she contracted (wrote out stipulations on the type of arrangements, bouquets, 12 buttonaires, garlands etc, the price for the service along with date and time of set up and delivery, and other contractual obligations between her and her contractee) wedding floral arrangements, there is Contractual Law to consider here.
Then we are back to, can Kanye West be forced to contract an appearance or show for a member of an organization he would not normally support (i.e. the KKK)? His personal convictions would probably vehemently prevent him from wanting to enter into any such contract, one would think.
Is Kanye allowed to say no Im not going to do that, or would that be discrimination on his part?
Depends, I guess. If the KKK members attending are just there to listen to his music and behave accordingly, I can't see much reasons for him not to perform. Of course, his manager/agent/whoever would have to find a way to prove this.
However, if, when he shows up, there is abuse and the potential for threats and violence, I think that's different. If the KKK invite Kanye for the sole purpose of trolling him, harassing him, and possibly hurting him (and that includes wearing their all-white garb, since that is a very racially threatening outfit), no one could blame him for backing out whatever contract.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if, as part of the contract, there isn't some clause guaranteeing the artist's physical/mental health and safety. The person hiring the artist to perform or appear would have to vouch for the artist's safety against crazy fans, typical club violence (I know of wannabe student musicians/singers/rappers who will not perform in certain venue that are lax in security). I've never seen the sort of contracts such artists would sell, so I don't know if this is true or not, but I would have to guess, or at least hope, that it exists.
So, going back to the above question, yes, I can see someone like Kanye not signing such a contract if he felt that his safety was truly in danger or the offer was disingenuous and I can see the breaking of such a contact, if made, being allowed or Kanye not being held responsible for not saying yes.
Bringing this back around to the florist, I suppose if she could prove that performing the contract (i.e., providing flowers to a gay wedding) duty put her at grave risk of physical, mental, or emotional well-being, she could argue that the contract had to be broken. If this has happened in real life (cases were contracts were broken for personal reasons), I would love to skim to see how such cases were handled.
Am I to infer by your red, bolded"??" that you think the couple in question knew ahead of time that the flower lady would turn down their request for flowers? Got proof? And even if you do, so what? The flower lady is still discriminating against a couple who want flowers for their wedding. It's as inane as it is offensive. Who cares where the flowers they sell are going once they leave the store? She is doing this for no other reason than to be a bigot. How much you want to bet Jay Sekulow is her lawyer?
I doubt that they would have had reason to suspect that she would turn them down.
She had been selling them flowers for years prior to them asking her, someone they likely considered their "regular, neighborhood florist," and maybe even a friend, to create an arrangement for their wedding.
She, disregarding years of patronage, basically spit in their faces.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,148,041 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
Depends, I guess. If the KKK members attending are just there to listen to his music and behave accordingly, I can't see much reasons for him not to perform. Of course, his manager/agent/whoever would have to find a way to prove this.
However, if, when he shows up, there is abuse and the potential for threats and violence, I think that's different. If the KKK invite Kanye for the sole purpose of trolling him, harassing him, and possibly hurting him (and that includes wearing their all-white garb, since that is a very racially threatening outfit), no one could blame him for backing out whatever contract.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if, as part of the contract, there isn't some clause guaranteeing the artist's physical/mental health and safety. The person hiring the artist to perform or appear would have to vouch for the artist's safety against crazy fans, typical club violence (I know of wannabe student musicians/singers/rappers who will not perform in certain venue that are lax in security). I've never seen the sort of contracts such artists would sell, so I don't know if this is true or not, but I would have to guess, or at least hope, that it exists.
So, going back to the above question, yes, I can see someone like Kanye not signing such a contract if he felt that his safety was truly in danger or the offer was disingenuous and I can see the breaking of such a contact, if made, being allowed or Kanye not being held responsible for not saying yes.
Bringing this back around to the florist, I suppose if she could prove that performing the contract (i.e., providing flowers to a gay wedding) duty put her at grave risk of physical, mental, or emotional well-being, she could argue that the contract had to be broken. If this has happened in real life (cases were contracts were broken for personal reasons), I would love to skim to see how such cases were handled.
Thanks for your input. If she felt it would put her at odds with her faith, does she have a right not to enter into a contract. She sold them flowers before several times. She knew what they were doing with them, but did not prevent them from buying the product offered at the price suggested without a contracted agreement.
A wedding would be more expensive and would involve a contract (assuming it wasnt just walking in and picking up whatever arrangements she had already prepared in the cooler) - Im not saying on the level of Kanye's contracts but, she's not quite as famous and well-known as he is either.
The word marriage, in and of itself, comes from 'mari' (young woman) conjoined with '-iage', and basicly boils down to mean 'to make a young woman with child'. The point of the whole process being procreation.
It would seem not being able to reconcile that fact with the truth of what was presented to her, could effect her well-being as it relates to her religous beliefs and community.
I ultimately agree with you. Cases that show what happened when contracts were broken citing religous beliefs could reflect on any problems with never agreeing to enter into them. Thanks again.
Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 03-29-2015 at 08:54 PM..
Reason: spelling
Apparently you (and many others) are not capable of understanding what the rest of us are saying, which is proof that we value our freedoms much more than you. There are too many people willing to give those personal freedoms to the government. Some day you'll only be free enough to examine the government-issued shackles on your wrists and ankles. Don't blame us. We tried to warn you.
Yeah. That's what white folks said all over the south for over 100 years after the Civil War. Equal rights for all is more than just the voting booth. All humans have the same basic desires and needs, no matter what their sexual orientation is, gays come in all colors too. If a person wants to run a public business, then all customers must be treated equally.
It's easy to create apartheid. A person cannot escape what color they are. It's not so easy to create sexual apartheid, because 'gaydar' doesn't exist in fact. No one can ever say for sure who is going to be walking in their front door to buy goods and services, and it's idiotic to think otherwise.
You don't know how anyone else values their freedoms, or who wants to give them up or not. That's a very blindly ignorant statement. The government is not shackling any business owner in any way. Any owner can set the standards for his business, but those standards have to be reasonable by law. That isn't shackling. That's simply regulating a civil society so that personal beliefs do not cause social anarchy.
If you disagree, tough. You don't get to be the decider. No one does except our chosen representatives. With such sweeping generalities as yours, I'm glad you won't ever have that power. Go to church and pray, brother. You need it.
She CHOSE to think that her invisible friend cares about who sleeps with whom and used that belief to turn away real live customers.
If her actual real life business suffers as a result of her belief in her invisible friend, that's on her, not on the customers.
I doubt that they would have had reason to suspect that she would turn them down.
She had been selling them flowers for years prior to them asking her, someone they likely considered their "regular, neighborhood florist," and maybe even a friend, to create an arrangement for their wedding.
She, disregarding years of patronage, basically spit in their faces.
She should have settled.
They spit in her face.
They knew she served gay people. She thought her regular customer and 'maybe even a friend' would empathize with and respect her religious beliefs about ssm. Instead, they sue.
She was naïve, too honest to come up with a phony reason not to serve the wedding and underestimated the importance of the guy's gay identity.
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