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You know what? That could actually be a fault on my part. Maybe I should've taken the time to read the whole website and all of its data rather than doing a quick google search just to put up some evidence on here ASAP. Nevertheless, black people are still killed by the police at a higher rate than other races. That's obviously why BLM is a big thing. It's obviously a factor as to why black people and some other minorities and white people get upset when they see the figures.
We can't deny that there's a stigma placed on black people that makes cops act in unreasonable ways at times. Pulling black people over without any proper explanation or something as trivial as failing to signal a turn in time is common. I talked to a 17 year old black female. She is my friend's sister. She got pulled over while on her way to CVS in her aunt's predominantly white town without explanation. A 17 year old in a pristine, bright yellow 2008 Mini Cooper with a huge Rutgers University sticker on it (she just got accepted at the time)...They asked her why she was there at night, sat around for 30 minutes with her license, and let her go. She could've easily filed a complaint and taken the issue to court but she dropped the issue.
A quick google search can pop up lots of instances like this too but make sure you read your quick google searches carefully.. unlike me!
As for the Asian rates, I really don't know. If Asians come here, a lot of them are already qualified in their own country to practice a profession. They earn certification to work in the USA either to make USD $$$ or have a better quality of life. They probably don't want to risk that by messing with the law. A lot of Asians here are escapees of war and come here to start a new life too.
But Asians aren't perfect. Tax fraud, rape, and other things happen among Asians in America.
Police officers don't like Asians more, by the way.. If they did, I wouldn't have so many speeding tickets! Lol
I think that your willingness to consider in greater depth what you've posted speaks well of you. No one is disputing that black people are killed by the police at greater rates than other races; this was shown quite clearly in the chart you posted. And I think that most people would agree that your sister's friend was treated unfairly, and it's quite possible that this mistreatment was due solely to her race. But these are chicken-and-egg issues: do blacks have a stigma that causes the police to be unreasonable towards them because of racism on the part of the larger society, or does excessive black criminality cause them to be stigmatized and cause the police to act more harshly towards them?
And while I'm not Asian, I've been around enough of them (my community is something like one-quarter Asian) to understand that their lower crime rate is due, at least in part, to cultural traits within their community that encourage obedience to authority, be it their parents or their teachers or the police. Consider your own experience. While being stopped for speeding, have you ever been dragged out of your car and rough-housed by a police officer? I'm betting you haven't, and I'm betting the reason for this is that you probably speak to the officer respectfully and don't mouth off at him, and you do what he tells you to do, and a crowd of your fellow Asians doesn't suddenly materialize and surround the officer and stick cameras in his face and try to provoke him. And that's why you go on your way with nothing worse than a speeding ticket, instead of ending up dead with a policeman's bullet in your body, and your memory being "honored" by rioting and looting and violence.
The black community, for the most part, does not care about black lives, at least not enough to protest. We already know this. There are no nightly protests in Detroit and New Orleans and Chicago. The only protests are for black criminals when they are killed by cops. There is 1000x more attention given to thugs like Michael Brown than to the thousands of blacks killed by other blacks every year.
So there's no reason for a "survey". We already know the black community, for the most part, doesn't care, at least not as much as they care about police misconduct. If they did care about black on black violence, then every major U.S. city would be shut down right now with protests against the massive daily black violence.
So you're somehow an expert on the "black community" and you can somehow know what black people are thinking without asking black folks (or even knowing a black person)? I know what right wing radio & Fox News spews. There's no need to regurgitate their propaganda word for word.
If you want to know if black lives matter to black people, just ask them! There's no need get your opinions from conservative media..
I think that your willingness to consider in greater depth what you've posted speaks well of you. No one is disputing that black people are killed by the police at greater rates than other races; this was shown quite clearly in the chart you posted. And I think that most people would agree that your sister's friend was treated unfairly, and it's quite possible that this mistreatment was due solely to her race. But these are chicken-and-egg issues: do blacks have a stigma that causes the police to be unreasonable towards them because of racism on the part of the larger society, or does excessive black criminality cause them to be stigmatized and cause the police to act more harshly towards them?
And while I'm not Asian, I've been around enough of them (my community is something like one-quarter Asian) to understand that their lower crime rate is due, at least in part, to cultural traits within their community that encourage obedience to authority, be it their parents or their teachers or the police. Consider your own experience. While being stopped for speeding, have you ever been dragged out of your car and rough-housed by a police officer? I'm betting you haven't, and I'm betting the reason for this is that you probably speak to the officer respectfully and don't mouth off at him, and you do what he tells you to do, and a crowd of your fellow Asians doesn't suddenly materialize and surround the officer and stick cameras in his face and try to provoke him. And that's why you go on your way with nothing worse than a speeding ticket, instead of ending up dead with a policeman's bullet in your body, and your memory being "honored" by rioting and looting and violence.
I think we should all keep pushing to find answers to such ambiguous questions like these. For instance, you asked, "do blacks have a stigma that causes the police to be unreasonable towards them because of racism on the part of the larger society, or does excessive black criminality cause them to be stigmatized and cause the police to act more harshly towards them?"
Compare both sides of your question and try to see which one seems more plausible as the answer to police brutality against blacks.
For the first part about law enforcement's stigma against black people because of society as a whole, think about society's attitudes towards black people.
In early America up until the 20th century, black people were simply not seen as "people". They were second class INHABITANTS (not even "citizens") of our country. They were casually blocked out of businesses, called the N word for no reason, and expected to do things like make way for a white person on the sidewalk. They were expected to always put white people first in almost every single public facility. Public lynchings of black people in certain parts of the country were not only common, but they were celebrated... So let's not forget that black people spent more time in this country either enslaved or severely discriminated against than being free and normal citizens.
It's more than 200 years of slavery plus almost 100 years of severe discrimination. Slavery began on this land in the early 1600's... Before the USA was even "the USA". Do you really think that 300 years of oppressing black people DOESN'T influence society's attitudes as a whole towards blacks in 2015?
Just because we allow all races to use the same bathroom, voting booth, and bus seat in our modern day society does not mean that the past magically goes away.
A lot of people are influenced to some degree by their family. If your grandparents raised your parents to think a certain way, your parents will most likely raise you to think a certain way. This, along with the fact that most white people grow up in white neighborhoods, allows an overall racist vibe to prevail among white people when they see a black person. Yes, white people that are in their 30's now will most likely be MUCH less racist than their grandparents, but that doesn't mean that their family and their environment doesn't influence them to a certain degree. I know for a fact that many Americans have no problem with stereotyping black people and subjecting them to such awkward comments without a second thought. It's almost as if they subconsciously objectify black people. Some say, "black people are so cool" or "black people are so good at basketball". Other say, "I hate black people" or something along those lines.
Either way, positive or not, black people are still objectified and judged instantly by their skin by almost everyone, no matter how "liberal" they claim to be. It's still quite rare to find an American that says, "that's my friend" instead of "that's my black friend". Many white people in this country claim to not be racist, but their attitudes do indeed show that they will fail to see black people as their complete equals. Even minorities fall victim to racism towards black people simply because everyone around us is racist towards black people. I've also seen studies where most Americans will automatically assume that black people are less intelligent than whites and other races, despite the fact that every race has an equal mix of smart and dumb.
If you take this into consideration, it's no secret that society's racism will influence police brutality towards black people A LOT!
Now, think about the second part of your question. Does excessive black criminality influence police behavior? I tried my best to think of an explanation to back this part of your question up, but it's honestly hard. All the factors I listed about the first part of your question overshadow anything I can say about this second part. I would say that excessive black criminality only agitates the issue, but it's not the sole cause. I can only see it influencing a police man or police woman if they were fresh immigrants to this country that don't know anything about American history.
I'm almost certain that if the black population was less than 5% criminal, there would still be issues between the police and black people simply because this country put them down for 300 years and that's what Americans are still "used to".
The best analogy I can think of is this: some say Mercedes drivers are entitled jerks, others say BMW drivers tailgate like crazy and often fail to use their turn signals, and others say that Honda drivers are calm, respectful drivers.
Trying to say that black people are treated differently by police only because they have a higher crime rate is like trying to say that the police take stereotypes behind car brands seriously when pulling someone over. It makes sense in retrospect, but it's certainly not the only reason. At the end of the day, a cop wouldn't pull over a BMW driver and call for backup because he assumes that the driver is dangerous simply because of the badge on his car.
I hope that stupid analogy makes some sense because it does in my head...
In my opinion, it's society as a whole that influences law enforcement's attitude towards black people. That's just my thought though. If anyone has conflicting opinions, they can comment their thoughts! I'm always trying my best to learn new things.
It's funny these "activists" think New Yorkers/people in the New York area know exactly when Michael Brown died or care about it. He died halfway across the country. This date thing was a coincidence.
The Yankees organization (and New York teams in general) have been very supportive of first responders since 9/11. It's a thing we do around here. Others don't like it? Stay away and leave us alone. And I'm not even a Yankee fan...
While being stopped for speeding, have you ever been dragged out of your car and rough-housed by a police officer? I'm betting you haven't, and I'm betting the reason for this is that you probably speak to the officer respectfully and don't mouth off at him, and you do what he tells you to do, and a crowd of your fellow Asians doesn't suddenly materialize and surround the officer and stick cameras in his face and try to provoke him. And that's why you go on your way with nothing worse than a speeding ticket, instead of ending up dead with a policeman's bullet in your body, and your memory being "honored" by rioting and looting and violence.
If I REALLY wanted to dig deep into the whole speeding ticket thing and take race into consideration, I have noticed that I've gotten a ticket every time I'm pulled over vs. almost all of my white friends getting warnings for going 90 in a 65 zone and such
But that's really pushing it.. I doubt I faced racial discrimination at all. If anything, it could be my car and my age. My dad bought my car for me, so it's not really something people my age could usually afford to drive around in
But then again, my white friend has the same car as me but 2 model years older.. He still got away with 83 in a 55! lol
I honestly don't know if it's racial or something else. I can't really comment because I'm one person and you really need a huge sampling poll to determine something like that.
While being stopped for speeding, have you ever been dragged out of your car and rough-housed by a police officer? I'm betting you haven't, and I'm betting the reason for this is that you probably speak to the officer respectfully and don't mouth off at him, and you do what he tells you to do, and a crowd of your fellow Asians doesn't suddenly materialize and surround the officer and stick cameras in his face and try to provoke him. And that's why you go on your way with nothing worse than a speeding ticket, instead of ending up dead with a policeman's bullet in your body, and your memory being "honored" by rioting and looting and violence.
To be honest, there have been moments where I bad mouth officers and still don't get slammed into the ground or anything like that. I know it seems like I'm finding things to go against what you're trying to say, but I don't want you to get the notion that I bow down to authority all the time. If I really was a sedated, authority following person, I probably wouldn't post on this thread! I would also probably be that one driver that follows the speed limit and blocks the flow of traffic.
I've honked at officers for taking too long to move at green lights twice. They didn't pull me over because it's not against the law to honk if someone is obstructing the flow of traffic like that and I know that. In fact, I just reported a rotten police officer that tailgated people and used his lights ONLY when he was right behind people in the left lane just to get them out of his lane. I was doing about 70 and he zoomed right by me. I got the number down and called state police. I know they probably won't do anything, but whatever. I was mad.
While pulled over once, I've said something like, "I don't see why you have to pull me over when this road is notorious for people going well above the limit. That silver car passed me and you know it," I got a ticket after that, but I didn't get body slammed or held at gunpoint. I was tempted to tell the officer that he needs to get laid but I really didn't want him to hit me with more points on my license than necessary. I know that no matter how much I bad mouth an officer, it's not going to get me tazed or shot. I have every (legal) right to show verbal attitude to an officer so I'm really not afraid to get close to the limit.
Really, I am a loud mouth and sometimes I love to push limits.. You probably assumed that from how much I rant on this thread. FOR YEARS I've been picked on in middle and high school because I'm Asian (and for other reasons). It honestly allowed me to build up enough mental courage to stand my ground and stand up for myself and what I want. I'm not respectful to everyone. I simply can't be. I get too pissed off because I'm too fed up with being pushed around like I'm nothing...
However, I am VERY respectful of my parents. I was also respectful to college professors and I still am very respectful of my coworkers and boss. But I will cuss you out if you blame me for doing something that I didn't do or if I feel like I'm at a disadvantage. I yell at strangers if they treat others in a way that they shouldn't be treated as well. I've even yelled at a random mother because she blamed me for "knocking her child over" when her child really just ran into my suitcase at the airport. I told her to go F herself and reminded her that the world doesn't revolve around her precious demon monkey. I flip out on customer service if I can't get what I want too! I stand my ground and assert myself. It's the only way to survive without being pushed around like leftover food or something.
Yeah, I know that some people may be thinking things like, "lol, ching chong c*ink gets mad.. how cute" and stuff like that, but I don't get security called on me and get escorted out like black people would!
Seriously, don't think for a moment that I'm completely passive and sedate. We all have our moments.
I'm not telling you all of this to come off as "cool" or anything. I'm just telling you this because I know in my heart that I would be treated differently if I showed attitude as a black person. Just because I'm Asian, I can get away with showing attitude like that. In a way, that's VERY messed up in itself! So obviously your race changes the way you see the world. At least I realize this instead of some people that are so adamant about their opinions on racism even though they're white in America & never face any racial discrimination. Even most Asians I know are insensitive to the struggles that other races go through.
I will never know what it's like to be black but I honestly try my best to understand their position. Discussing racism, particularly racism towards black people, in depth is the only way we are going to get rid of it.
and that is one of the main reasons why BLM exists!
The black community, for the most part, does not care about black lives, at least not enough to protest. We already know this. There are no nightly protests in Detroit and New Orleans and Chicago. The only protests are for black criminals when they are killed by cops.
IDK, I hear about anti-crime protests within the Chicago black community all the time...
crna101, thank you for your very detailed and thoughtful responses. I really enjoy reading your posts (no sarcasm, I'm being sincere) because you obviously feel strongly about this, but you're willing to take the time and put forth a well-reasoned, courteous argument.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to give you as detailed of a response as you deserve, but let me give you this:
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Originally Posted by crna101
Now, think about the second part of your question. Does excessive black criminality influence police behavior?
I don't dispute your interpretation of America's shameful history of mistreatment towards black people. But that was then, and this is now. Consider that for every 6 white people in America, there is one black person. According to data I presented earlier, whites are responsible for 53% of police deaths, whereas blacks are responsible for 44%. Thus, the police know that 1/7th of the population are responsible for almost half of their felonious deaths.
Furthermore, though I don't have the data to support this, I think it's safe to assume that cop-killers are not evenly distributed among the general population. I would bet that nearly all of them are young men, somewhere in the 16-30 age range.
So, what share of the overall U.S. population is made up of young black men? 1 in 50, maybe? This means that the police know that a very specific and easily identifiable 1 person out of every 50 is responsible, statistically speaking, for almost half of the times that they are likely to be killed.
Given this, how would you behave when confronting one of those individuals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna101
I don't want you to get the notion that I bow down to authority all the time.
Mission accomplished!
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna101
While pulled over once, I've said something like, "I don't see why you have to pull me over when this road is notorious for people going well above the limit. That silver car passed me and you know it," I got a ticket after that, but I didn't get body slammed or held at gunpoint.
I'm white. I've been pulled over maybe 10 times (I haven't counted) during the 30-plus years I've been driving. I've been ticketed maybe half those times, given warnings the other times. One time, I was driving through a rural area on a 55 mph country road, when all of a sudden there was a sign saying SPEED LIMIT 25. And right past that sign, boom, I was pulled over.
It was a speed trap, of course. Even if I had slammed on my brakes the instant I saw that sign, I doubt I could have gotten down to 25 before I got to the waiting policeman. So, what did I do? Did I complain to the officer about the blatant unfairness of it all? Nope. Instead I said words to the effect of "I'm sorry, officer, I honestly did not see that sign until it was too late for me to slow down. But I realize that this is not an excuse, and I will certainly pay closer attention from now on." He let me go with a warning.
Police officers are human just like the rest of us, and they don't enjoy getting lipped off at any more than the rest of us do. Try showing more respect next time, and you just might be let off with a warning as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna101
I know in my heart that I would be treated differently if I showed attitude as a black person. Just because I'm Asian, I can get away with showing attitude like that.
Go back to those cop-killing stats again. What share of them are committed by young Asian men? I don't know, but I'll bet it's so vanishingly small as to hardly even register. The average police officer probably figures that even if a young Asian man gives him attitude, that's as far as it will go. Also, the stereotype of Asian men as being weak and docile works to your favor here, because the average policeman probably figures that he could overpower you pretty easily, if need be. But if a young black man gives him attitude, it could be a prelude to worse things to come. I think this goes a long way towards explaining the difference in treatment that you receive.
It's more than 200 years of slavery plus almost 100 years of severe discrimination. Slavery began on this land in the early 1600's... Before the USA was even "the USA". Do you really think that 300 years of oppressing black people DOESN'T influence society's attitudes as a whole towards blacks in 2015?
Just because we allow all races to use the same bathroom, voting booth, and bus seat in our modern day society does not mean that the past magically goes away.
This has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on black people today. Its just a tired old, lame excuse to try and justify why so many blacks are violent and criminal. A black baby born today knows NOTHING of slavery and the history of blacks in America and therefore its a blank slate and its up to parents of this black child to raise that kid right. Unfortunately too many black parents do a pi$$ poor job of raising their kids properly and keeping them out of trouble and THAT'S the real reason why blacks are where they are today.
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Either way, positive or not, black people are still objectified and judged instantly by their skin by almost everyone, no matter how "liberal" they claim to be. It's still quite rare to find an American that says, "that's my friend" instead of "that's my black friend". Many white people in this country claim to not be racist, but their attitudes do indeed show that they will fail to see black people as their complete equals. Even minorities fall victim to racism towards black people simply because everyone around us is racist towards black people. I've also seen studies where most Americans will automatically assume that black people are less intelligent than whites and other races, despite the fact that every race has an equal mix of smart and dumb.
Most people who have a bias towards blacks do so based on HOW POORLY MANY BLACK PEOPLE BEHAVE. You can't continually commit crime, violence and murder at very high rates and not expect people to perceive you in a certain way. The REAL WORLD doesn't work that way.
You would think that if blacks cared so much about how people saw them that they would get their sh$t together and raise their kids right and get rid of all the criminal elements in their communities so that eventually their crime rates will go down and people will naturally change their perceptions of blacks.
But guess what? Every chance blacks have ever gotten to prove everyone was wrong about them, THEY GO OUT AND DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE and prove to everyone that they were right. For example look at Baltimore. I'm sure most people who saw those protests probably said 'They're going to turn violent'. And it did. We said there would be looting. There was. We said that it wasn't the police that was the main issue here and when Baltimore police gave blacks what they wanted and backed off, what happened? More violence and murder rather than less.
The point is where have blacks proven to everyone that we were wrong? Imagine if they got together and had peaceful protests with little to no violence or looting or gunfire etc what people's perceptions of blacks at least in Baltimore would be? Very much different than they are now. But as it was, anyone with half a brain could figure out that blacks could NEVER do this and as expected they proved to non-blacks that yet again we were right about them.
But despite all of that, blacks being blacks they now DEMAND respect and to be treated equally when they have shown time and time again that many of them DO NOT DESERVE respect or equal treatment when they behave so poorly compared to everyone else.
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Trying to say that black people are treated differently by police only because they have a higher crime rate is like trying to say that the police take stereotypes behind car brands seriously when pulling someone over. It makes sense in retrospect, but it's certainly not the only reason. At the end of the day, a cop wouldn't pull over a BMW driver and call for backup because he assumes that the driver is dangerous simply because of the badge on his car.
I hope that stupid analogy makes some sense because it does in my head...
As stated by someone above, this is a chicken and egg issue. Namely blacks commit crime at very high rates for their population size so if we want cops to do their jobs, shouldn't they be policing blacks more closely and devoting more resources towards them than say towards asians? That's common sense and again, as I said above when Baltimore cops left blacks on their own to do as they wanted what happened? They became MORE violent not less so.
So where is the factual proof that shows blacks don't require more policing? Personally I would LOVE police forces all across the US to stop policing black communities and give black people what they asked for on a national scale for half a year and then see what happens. But I bet you not even a month in most black communities will be BEGGING for police to return to their neighborhoods. That's the thing about blacks, even when they get what they asked for, they just find a way to screw it up anyways.
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In my opinion, it's society as a whole that influences law enforcement's attitude towards black people. That's just my thought though. If anyone has conflicting opinions, they can comment their thoughts! I'm always trying my best to learn new things.
I disagree. Its BLACKS THEMSELVES that influence law enforcement's attitude towards black people. Do you seriously believe that if blacks in America suddenly had a dramatic drop in their crime rates over the next 5 years that cops would STILL not mostly treat blacks the same as non-blacks? I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. That if black crime rates magically dropped to white levels of violent crime and murder etc that cops would still be so hard on black people.
If black people in America can have low crime rates as whites in America do for several years straight and they're still mistreated by police, then I will personally go out and protest side by side with them for this issue, because that would actually be wrong. But somehow I don't think I'll ever have to do that because my chances of winning the lotto will be at least 100x higher than blacks ever lowering their crime rates to white crime levels. THAT. WILL. NEVER. HAPPEN. GUARANTEED.
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