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Here's a few questions I wonder about (not bashing, just idle thoughts).
1. If a guy is hiding behind a car and you know from prior shots your bullets won't penetrate the car why keep shooting at it 80 odd times?
2.Why didn't someone shoot at the gas tank? Hit it and one of two things happens. It leaks which would frighten most anyone who's hiding behind it or in the absolute best case it catches fire making hiding behind it very,very uncomfortable at the least. I'd even wager said criminal would freak out thinking it would suddenly blow up like in the movies.
3.Why doesn't the police have armor piercing bullets like (some) crooks do?
4.Why didn't at least one cop use a shotgun spraying 00 Buckshot pellets under the car to hit the crooks ankles/legs
5. Wouldn't one think of using the solid slug out of a shotgun? Those can penetrate steel pretty well.
6. Thinking creatively, one would think firing a flash/bang then C/S canister into the car would have some kind of effect on the person hiding behind it?
I mean, if you're willing to let loose that many bullets what the heck,might as well try it right?
Just wondering is all...
I know a few of these.
1) Shooting at the car keeps the guy behind the car instead of running or popping up and firing shots.
3) Armor piercing bullets tend to penetrate vehicles and buildings. Usually when a police officer is shooting, this is a very bad thing as it increases the likelihood of hitting a bystander. (This is also why police use hollowpoints, which are functionally the opposite of AP.) Some departments have AP loads available in specific vehicles (especially loaded into a rifle), but you have to have one of those vehicles there and have the time to go back and get it. In some cases, you have to have an officer trained in the use of those rounds/that weapon too so you don't have someone untrained shooting an AP round through a house and killing someone.
4 and 5) Same issue with 3. Police very rarely carry shotgun slugs. They are a little more likely to carry shot loaded shotguns but not every vehicle has them and not every department.
6) Only tactical (SWAT) can carry flashbang and C/S. These were not tactical officers.
I don't know about 2, but for most of these, these are simply weapon options that normally beat officers cannot carry or rarely carry.
I know a few of these.
1) Shooting at the car keeps the guy behind the car instead of running or popping up and firing shots.
3) Armor piercing bullets tend to penetrate vehicles and buildings. Usually when a police officer is shooting, this is a very bad thing as it increases the likelihood of hitting a bystander. (This is also why police use hollowpoints, which are functionally the opposite of AP.) Some departments have AP loads available in specific vehicles (especially loaded into a rifle), but you have to have one of those vehicles there and have the time to go back and get it. In some cases, you have to have an officer trained in the use of those rounds/that weapon too so you don't have someone untrained shooting an AP round through a house and killing someone.
4 and 5) Same issue with 3. Police very rarely carry shotgun slugs. They are a little more likely to carry shot loaded shotguns but not every vehicle has them and not every department.
6) Only tactical (SWAT) can carry flashbang and C/S. These were not tactical officers.
I don't know about 2, but for most of these, these are simply weapon options that normally beat officers cannot carry or rarely carry.
There is pretty much no such thing as an armor piercing handgun bullet, beyond maybe the 5.7 and that is a pretty poorly performing round in a non armor related situaiton. Pretty much all rifle bullets are capable of penetrating soft armor, this does not however make them armor piercing.
The officers should have rifles namely ARs at their disposal not shotguns. The 556 round is less likely to overpenetrate and with a semi platform have more readily available firepower. Easy to add a spare AR mag to a duty belt as well.
There is pretty much no such thing as an armor piercing handgun bullet, beyond maybe the 5.7 and that is a pretty poorly performing round in a non armor related situaiton. Pretty much all rifle bullets are capable of penetrating soft armor, this does not however make them armor piercing.
The officers should have rifles namely ARs at their disposal not shotguns. The 556 round is less likely to overpenetrate and with a semi platform have more readily available firepower. Easy to add a spare AR mag to a duty belt as well.
Thanks for better info! So basically for jimj's questions, the main answer is "They needed different weapons," across the board.
I don't know very well what the shotguns are used for in police vehicles, but there are very specific types of rounds they fire out of the shotguns. (There are also the pink shotguns, which are loaded with less lethal rounds, but that would have nothing to do the scenario that happened here.)
For the record, I'm not bashing the cops so much, it the way they are being trained that bothers me. So, again, take it however you want. But its still BS. Give them all the ammo they can carry. But a little...discretion...as to where fired rounds actually end up, especially in an urban area, might, just maybe, be a good idea.
I've done a fair bit of cop-bashing lately, but having participated in (and qualified with a high score) the Mass. Criminal Justice Training Council Police Combat Pistol Course, I'm not convinced that *all* cops are as poorly trained as you imply. I can't speak to current training as my experience was back in the 1990s, and there are certainly *many* training programs which may be different, but I have to believe that that they are taught better than just spray 'n' pray.
That said, I am of the opinion that hi-cap pistols (and full-auto assault weapons that some departments have access to) *can* lead to a state of mind that favors more lead down-range rather than greater accuracy...in *some* cops (and I've seen the same thing in the military).
And, *that* said, if you have never been in a gunfight, I'm not sure that you have a full grasp of the physiological and psychological changes that occur in the average individual, which have a detrimental effect on control and accuracy.
Maybe I'm just fortunate, but *all* of my training*** (giving and receiving) focused on accuracy and awareness of where the rounds were going rather than simply putting a lot of metal in the air and *hoping* to hit what you were trying to hit.
Somebody made a comment about "mag-dropping", and that was a bone of contention with me and the instructors when I went thru the CPC- the instructors kept yelling at me because I refused to simply drop my [empty] mags on the ground. Unlike many of the cops who carried hi-cap 9s, I carried a .45 (6+1) (there were even a few with .38/.357 revolvers). I'm a lefty, and I carried a Sig P220E which is the European model with the mag release at the bottom of the grip instead of the American model with the mag release on the *side*. I had to activate the release with my off (right) hand anyway, so it was really no great loss of time to just rip the mag out and stuff it in my belt and extract a fresh mag. They finally quit harping on me when we got to the final section of the course- 10yds, quick-draw double-taps fired from the hip with a two second time-limit. Lacking the high capacity of the 9s and having an odd number of cartridges, I often found myself having to swap mags between the first and second shots...and proved that I was capable of consistently being able to get the second round off within the time-limit in spite of that...and consistently hitting center-mass whether I had to swap mags or not.
***Pistol/revolver .22-.45, inc. MAC 10/11 and Uzi (courtesy of 'The Company'); various rifles including M-16 and M-60MG; 40mm grenade launcher; LAW rocket; 88mm mortar and 155mm self-propelled Howitzer. Regrettably, I never got the opportunity to get my hands on a .50MG or a Vulcan (Puff The Magic Dragon...though I *did* almost get 'burned' by one when I accidently wandered into its path, but that's a whole nother story...)
I won't pretend to be able to operate better than a LEO or anyone else in a stress situation, but any firearms enthusiast will tell you that PD shooting qualifications are total bull$%&. I could pass any PD shooting qualification test with my eyes closed and while holding the gun in my teeth. And I hope I'm not supposed to be impressed with a policeman hitting the range 3 times a year.
I'm absolutely not trying to insult cops, but there's a misperception that being one automatically makes you some sort of marksman. I think this is especially the case in NYC where there's a good possibility that they've never even touched a firearm before setting foot in police academy.
Very true. I've been on here before to warn people - Police Officers ability with firearms is generally extremely poor. Weapons training requirements vary from department to department but are never sufficient. Better departments might require 2 times a year at a firing range - that's NOT good, it's scary. Some departments and officers, seriously, their last training may have been at the academy. I usually carry a weapon, and I would consider 2 times a year or less of training as reckless.
And departments love to use glocks as service revolvers. Let me tell you the reason - because they are idiot proof. No manual safety to train with, no hammer - just point and pull the trigger. And when you hire idiots, this is the weapon for them.
I won't even get into the record of negligent and accidental discharges by police officers. Forget citizens with guns, many of them that go through the trouble of getting concealed carry permits also tend to shoot, and thus train, regularly. I am scared of police officers with guns.
Very true. I've been on here before to warn people - Police Officers ability with firearms is generally extremely poor. Weapons training requirements vary from department to department but are never sufficient. Better departments might require 2 times a year at a firing range - that's NOT good, it's scary. Some departments and officers, seriously, their last training may have been at the academy. I usually carry a weapon, and I would consider 2 times a year or less of training as reckless.
And departments love to use glocks as service revolvers. Let me tell you the reason - because they are idiot proof. No manual safety to train with, no hammer - just point and pull the trigger. And when you hire idiots, this is the weapon for them.
I won't even get into the record of negligent and accidental discharges by police officers. Forget citizens with guns, many of them that go through the trouble of getting concealed carry permits also tend to shoot, and thus train, regularly. I am scared of police officers with guns.
Glocks are fantastic firearms. Challenge is NYPD put horrendous triggers in them they did so to emulate revolvers. Lots of other PD's also use the NY1 trigger. I have an old cop gun that has an NY1 in it, lol terrible.
Glocks are fantastic firearms. Challenge is NYPD put horrendous triggers in them they did so to emulate revolvers. Lots of other PD's also use the NY1 trigger. I have an old cop gun that has an NY1 in it, lol terrible.
My wife had a Glock when she was a cop. I tried it, didn't like it at all.
For a semi-auto pistol, I much prefer my Sig P220E. Its SA/DA with no external safeties, 'ready to go' like a revolver (doesn't have to be 'cocked and locked' like a 1911 style) and, under stress, you really don't notice the weight of the DA trigger-pull for the first shot.
My Sig may not have the high capacity that her Glock had, but, I didn't *need* it...I was at the range a minimum of once a month (often once every week or two) and I tend to hit what I'm shooting at...and a hit from a 185gr Silvertip or 230gr Hardball (or anything in between- Black Talon/SXT, Hydra-Shok, et.) can be pretty convincing.
My wife had a Glock when she was a cop. I tried it, didn't like it at all.
For a semi-auto pistol, I much prefer my Sig P220E. Its SA/DA with no external safeties, 'ready to go' like a revolver (doesn't have to be 'cocked and locked' like a 1911 style) and, under stress, you really don't notice the weight of the DA trigger-pull for the first shot.
My Sig may not have the high capacity that her Glock had, but, I didn't *need* it...I was at the range a minimum of once a month (often once every week or two) and I tend to hit what I'm shooting at...and a hit from a 185gr Silvertip or 230gr Hardball (or anything in between- Black Talon/SXT, Hydra-Shok, et.) can be pretty convincing.
Cop gun= terrible trigger. Handgun stopping power is generally a myth. Easy to hit paper with any system in a static range.
100% Wrong. Don't put your racism on everyone else. I have never had a young black male do anything bad to me in my life, and I have been around places where there were a lot of young black males. OTOH, I have been robbed and harassed by police too many times to even count.
I have never had a young black male force my car to stop, and then shake me down for money. I have never had young black male force me out of my car, and then start searching it violation of my constitutional rights.
I have never seen a young black male carjack a car. I know it happens, because I have seen videos of it. But I have never seen it happen with my own eyes. So I don't worry much about it. OTOH I can look out my window any time of the day or night and see jackbooted government thugs, robbing people on the highway, every 15 minutes.
But you think I should fear something, that I have never ever seen happen, more then something that I see happen every 15 minutes with my own eyes. Your reality sure is weird, to say nothing about irrational.
I could not have explained this better myself. I have suffered a lot because of the police.
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Equal combat
I have never had a young black male do anything bad to me in my life, and I have been around places where there were a lot of young black males. OTOH, I have been robbed and harassed by police too many times to even count.
