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At the risk of going off-topic, I don't buy the homeschool-not-to-work argument. Not to go too far off tangent, but being a parent IS work. Teaching your kids IS work. In many cases it's a lot less stressful and a lot more relaxing (and often gets you more respect from some in society, not to mention a salary) to go to a paying job. Teaching is a job and is worthy of respect, whether you're teaching your own kids or someone else's.
I agree, though, that there are some homeschooling families out there who seem to have made it their mission in life to demonize the public schools. In their case it's not that the schools aren't meeting their individual children's needs, but that they believe all public schools are all bad (and teach their children the same viewpoint). On the other hand, there are those who believe all homeschooling to be bad, too, so it certainly goes both ways.
I agree that much of the different ways in which we on this board and in general across the United States think of homeschooling or public schools has much to do with our own personal experiences as well as where we live. I am lucky to live in a city with a wide selection of public schools, including magnets, but those who live in, say, a small town with one school, don't have that luxury.
LOL, one counter example doesn't prove a point. In general, there is no reason to believe that kids who do well in homeschooling wouldn't have done as well in traditional schooling. Demographics alone explains the higher test scores. There is no evidence that homeschooling is better. That kids do better homeschooled than they would had they been traditionally schooled with the same factors working in their favor.
Let's start with the fact that when I pointed out that you had ignored evidence, you denied it, did not read it, and insisted "the deck was stacked," without having the foggiest what my argument was.
Next:
Person A says: ALL PEOPLE ARE LIKE THIS.
Person B says: Here is an example in which not all people are like that.
Person A says: That doesn't prove anything. IN GENERAL all people are like this.
In the world of "proof," one example IS sufficient to show that an absolute statement is false.
Next - I take it you read only one of the two links, if even.
Without logical reason to believe there is a difference, data doesn't support homeschooling as better. It appears not to harm (from a test score perspective), which is good but given you'd expect higher scores from kids with the kinds of things going for them homeschoolers do, higher scores, themselves, mean nothing other than this is a group with demographics you'd expect higher scores from.
You keep repeating that "There is no evidence that homeschooling is better."
If you were right, then when we took the same demographics and compared like to like, then the public school students would also be as much as 4 grade levels ahead on standardized tests in 8th grade.
So... you show me the evidence that they are! *waits forever* The evidence doesn't exist because it is not true.
You keep thinking that (almost) all children are the same, when they are not. A significant percentage of children will consistently flounder in the public schools, but thrive in a smaller setting with individual attention - I'd estimate roughly 20-25% based on learning styles theory. A significant percentage of children will hate and loathe homeschooling, even if their parents are so inclined. (There is a smaller group that might love to be homeschooled if they had different parents or love to be in school if only the school was different than it is.)
"In general" you make broad sweeping statements supported by what you claim is"logic."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Are there cases where homeschooling is best? Sure. Take my cousin. Her son is, severely, autistic. He needs to be handled in special ways that are very difficult to manage in a group setting. But it's his special needs that make homeschooling the correct choice. It's clear that traditional schooling won't work for this child. Homeschooling can only do so much for him. Unfortunately, there isn't a schooling type that will result in him being a normally functioning adult.
Irony upon irony.
The founder of the Musachino Higashi Gakuen would have taken exception to your comments and insisted - and proven - that homeschooling is not only far from the only option, but almost certainly not the best option!
I don't know your cousin nor her son (who is also your cousin). But I sure resent the implication that the only people for whom homeschooling is the best are severely disfunctional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I don't see an advantage for the typical child or the garden variety gifted child. Extremely gifted children who don't function well in peer groups anyway may benefit from being pulled out of the peer group but, then again, they may benefit more from learning how to interact with their peers in the long run. There are social issues in education.
Yes. We know you don't see it. That YOU don't see something does not make it wrong.
Extremely gifted kids often function fine in peer groups - the problem is they don't have peer groups in school! They have agemates!
You have previously granted that there is more opportunity to explore individual learning styles and interests in homeschooling.
You have provided NO proof that those are other than positive (though you did quote a couple aphorisms). You have posited that it makes them more rigid, but colleges seem to disagree with you, and as the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding.
[quote=Ivorytickler;10346227]By the time graduation rolls
I have. My experience has been they have the same problems at home with their child the school had with their child. Without fail, the homeschoolers I've known who have pulled their kids for "problems" have returned their kids to the public schools within a couple of years with more problems.
My neighbor was sure it was the school's fault her daughter was not learning as fast as she should. They homeschooled for two years. By the time they returned her to the public school, she was well over a year behind. They had the same problem at home that she had in school. When they sent her back to school, they threatened to sue the district and got her put into a program in a school on the other side of town. Yup, she has the same problems.
The homeschoolersl I've known, who stuck with homeschooling, usually fall into one of two categories. Religious homeschoolers and moms who'd rather homeschool than work (homeschooling is an excuse to continue to stay at home. This type, usually, sends their kids to the pulic school until it's time for the last one to go then either they all get homeschooled or one child is picked to be homescholed because of "problems" ). I do know one long term homeschool family that I have no clue what their reasons are (not the only long term homeschool family I know, I just have no clue what their reasons are). Our kids are in piano classes together. Homeschool is a taboo subject because it's like entering an Amway convention as soon as it's brought up. I think the mom has tried to recruit everyone but me. She knows I'm a teacher. I guess she figures I'm the enemy .
I get along best with the moms who homeschool as an excuse to continue to stay at home. They will, often ask me what I'd suggest they do for labs. In fact, one of them still owes me a set of books I loaned her . I'm going to have to call her.
My experience is, religous homeschoolers (control issues) tend to keep to themselves. People who homeschool because the schools are the problem tend to be zealots. At least until they figure out they can't solve the problem either. They don't tend to stick with it in my experience. This may have something to do with where I live. There are several decent districts to choose from so parents may be more willing to trust the schools. I might see something different here if I lived in an area with really lousy schools. We're kind of middle of the road with schools ranking 5-7 out of 10. If we ranked a 2, there might be less attrition in the homeschooling because of problems camp.
All I can say is that your experiences have been the exact opposite from my experiences. How many homeschoolers do you know again? Almost all of the homeschoolers I know (probably 200 families, between two states), whether they began homeschooling from the get go, or whether they pulled their kids out, plan to keep homeschooling. I know one family that sent the kids to school after homeschooling for several years, and it was due to a health issue in one of the parents.
Oh, and I belong to a Christian homeschool group... we get together quite often, and there are a lot of families involved. We go to Bible study weekly, then to PE, park days, field trips, swimming, beach days, etc... we're far from isolated.
Your generalizations and "experiences" are absurd, and I think most posters on this thread realize this.
All I can say is that your experiences have been the exact opposite from my experiences. How many homeschoolers do you know again? Almost all of the homeschoolers I know (probably 200 families, between two states), whether they began homeschooling from the get go, or whether they pulled their kids out, plan to keep homeschooling. I know one family that sent the kids to school after homeschooling for several years, and it was due to a health issue in one of the parents.
Oh, and I belong to a Christian homeschool group... we get together quite often, and there are a lot of families involved. We go to Bible study weekly, then to PE, park days, field trips, swimming, beach days, etc... we're far from isolated.
Your generalizations and "experiences" are absurd, and I think most posters on this thread realize this.
Over the years, a couple dozen (not counting the religious group meantioned later). As I said, they tend to travel in packs. I don't see people doing it long term though. While it is popular in my church, it's not for religious reasons like it is with some of my neighbors (that group is kind of reclusive so I can't say much about them. Their kids don't play with our kids so who knows. Very separatist.). I'd say it's more the mom doesn't want to get a job but the kids are old enough for school and homeschooling is a great excuse not to work reason in my church. (Kind of obvious when mom says nothing about homeschooling until that last child is ready for school.)
With the exception of my friend (who is never getting a job if she can help it ), and the anti social religous group that seems to homeschool quite often, everyone I know has quit after a couple of years if they lasted that long. I do think the longer you do it, the better the results probably are. Success breeds success while failures encourage quitting. I don't think people stick with it long term if it's not working for them (which is a huge reason to take test scores with a grain of salt). People tend to only beat their head against a wall so long before realizing it hurts. If it works for you, great. Problem is you can't tell who it's going to work for or not going in. I can drive home drunk and not get in an accident too but doing so deoesn't mean it was smart to take the risk in the first place. I see too much at risk in homeschooling to gamble that my kids would be the ones it worked for long term. I like to have reasonable hope going in that I'll win before I gamble with something as important to me as my kids.
I'd love to see data on what I see here, which is homeschooling for a couple of years and quitting and what that does. I wonder how those kids do in school. So far I've had two but one was returned to the public system as an 11th grader (mom wants a real diploma for him). The other was homeschooled but I'm not sure when she came back to the public school. I'm sure I'll see more over the years. Most homeschoolers would find my subjects hard to teach. Chemistry you can do at home if you invest in the equipment. Physics would be too costly unless you had someplace to go for labs. While there are some low budget labs, there are some that just work better with the right equipment.
Hmmm? Maybe I'll start a new business offering labs to homeschooled kids . I wonder how much I could get per lab? On second thought, it would take way too long to recoup my investment and I don't think parents would be happy if I used the cheap versions of labs if they're paying for them.
I have made it very clear that my generalizations are based on my personal experience. That is what it is. It proves nothing. All discussing it does is reflect on my perspective based on my experience. Other portions of my argument are based on logic (such as expecting that home school graduates are the cream of the homeschooling crop simply because it's human nature to quit when something doesn't work for you when you have a choice.).
I see what I see and I see mostly parents homeschooling for a couple of years and quitting. Probably has to do with the fact my kids are in the public schools. I don't think homeschooler's kids are hanging out with them and I'm, certainly, more likely to meet people who homeschooled and quit there than anywhere else. It is odd that I see the same thing in my church and relatives who have homeschooled though but that's a much smaller group. Who knows how representative they are. BTW, this is why I asked for data on attrition. I can't seem to find any on line. The percentage of homeschoolers is going up year over year but that just means more start than quit. It doesn't mean they're sticking with it over time. Given the bad economy, I'd expect it to go up anyway. If private school would have been your choice but you're one of the 16+% unemployed in this state, homeschool might look better than public school. While I don't know anyone who did this, I do know several women who decided to just stay home with their kdis because the economy is so bad rather than look for work.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-19-2009 at 03:26 PM..
I have. My experience has been they have the same problems at home with their child the school had with their child. Without fail, the homeschoolers I've known who have pulled their kids for "problems" have returned their kids to the public schools within a couple of years with more problems.
My neighbor was sure it was the school's fault her daughter was not learning as fast as she should. They homeschooled for two years. By the time they returned her to the public school, she was well over a year behind. They had the same problem at home that she had in school. When they sent her back to school, they threatened to sue the district and got her put into a program in a school on the other side of town. Yup, she has the same problems.
The homeschoolersl I've known, who stuck with homeschooling, usually fall into one of two categories. Religious homeschoolers and moms who'd rather homeschool than work (homeschooling is an excuse to continue to stay at home. This type, usually, sends their kids to the pulic school until it's time for the last one to go then either they all get homeschooled or one child is picked to be homescholed because of "problems" ). I do know one long term homeschool family that I have no clue what their reasons are (not the only long term homeschool family I know, I just have no clue what their reasons are). Our kids are in piano classes together. Homeschool is a taboo subject because it's like entering an Amway convention as soon as it's brought up. I think the mom has tried to recruit everyone but me. She knows I'm a teacher. I guess she figures I'm the enemy .
I get along best with the moms who homeschool as an excuse to continue to stay at home. They will, often ask me what I'd suggest they do for labs. In fact, one of them still owes me a set of books I loaned her . I'm going to have to call her.
My experience is, religous homeschoolers (control issues) tend to keep to themselves. People who homeschool because the schools are the problem tend to be zealots. At least until they figure out they can't solve the problem either. They don't tend to stick with it in my experience. This may have something to do with where I live. There are several decent districts to choose from so parents may be more willing to trust the schools. I might see something different here if I lived in an area with really lousy schools. We're kind of middle of the road with schools ranking 5-7 out of 10. If we ranked a 2, there might be less attrition in the homeschooling because of problems camp.
TWO groups huh?! We are very secular and I've always worked and homeschooled and run a business to boot. Now, I've choose to cut back on work and focus more on the business, which also gives us more time for school not to mention all the other fun stuff. So where does that put me? Well I talked to a few teachers before and after making our decision. One teacher was very much like you and he was actually just very interested in hearing from my side, although a debater. But like all the other teachers I've spoken with including this man, we are told the same things, "There is no place in the public school for your daughter and homeschooling or paying a tutor are about your only options. I don't think typical private schools would really do much for her."
And this is with the knowledge that she probably has dyslexia. Right when I say it, the first thing is that I'm not qualified to teach her, in which they have legitimate concern, until I mention the program that we got for her and how it is working. When I describe the program, they say it is probably better than anything that is in place for those with dyslexic in public schools and they commend me for taking the time (a year) to find the right program for her.
SO you forgot a group, or two. We could fall into the group of "kids with learning disabilities pulled out or never placed into school" but I suspect you would be quite smug as you placed me into that "My daughter is smarter than your daughter and is too good to learn your your inferior child." (note the sarcasm) You know the kind... it couldn't possibly the inferior public education...it must be much more negative than that.
BUT WAIT!....let us through in another kink...we plan on learning about every single state in our country...by going to each one for a couple weeks at a time. We must do it because we're the hippy type.
I"M NOT DONE YET! DAD homeschooles too...there is no mention of daddy's teaching their kids. So this gets really complicated. Either we are dealing with a gender confused man who has a fear of prejudices his children might learn in public school about "his kind" OR we fall into "He MUST be teaching them to take over the family business." You know, rather than being better educated than any public science school teacher and passing on his knowledge.
(such as expecting that home school graduates are the cream of the homeschooling crop simply because it's human nature to quit when something doesn't work for you when you have a choice.).
So, let me make sure I understand your positions...
People for whom homeschooling isn't working are failures/quitters.
People for whom public schooling isn't working who go on to succeed in homeschooling don't exist, because if you can't make it in public school, you won't succeed in homeschooling, either - with maybe a couple exceptions.
Those who persist and complete homeschool are successes all expected to do well, because the average of the demographics is so good.
Those who persist and complete public school are not considered anything - nor expected to do particularly well, even those whose demographics match that of the homeschoolers.
And kids who homeschool are getting less good an education because their needs are being addressed personally through tailored education, and they become more rigid and fail to learn how to live in the regular world.
So, let me make sure I understand your positions...
People for whom homeschooling isn't working are failures/quitters.
People for whom public schooling isn't working who go on to succeed in homeschooling don't exist, because if you can't make it in public school, you won't succeed in homeschooling, either - with maybe a couple exceptions.
Those who persist and complete homeschool are successes all expected to do well, because the average of the demographics is so good.
Those who persist and complete public school are not considered anything - nor expected to do particularly well, even those whose demographics match that of the homeschoolers.
And kids who homeschool are getting less good an education because their needs are being addressed personally through tailored education, and they become more rigid and fail to learn how to live in the regular world.
*******
Do I have it right?
Yep, I think that about covers the gist... but you forgot "homeschooling moms are either religious nutbags or lazy slobs who don't want to work." Because, you know, homeschooling is just a cake walk compared to putting your kid on a school bus for the day!
So, let me make sure I understand your positions...
People for whom homeschooling isn't working are failures/quitters.
People for whom public schooling isn't working who go on to succeed in homeschooling don't exist, because if you can't make it in public school, you won't succeed in homeschooling, either - with maybe a couple exceptions.
Those who persist and complete homeschool are successes all expected to do well, because the average of the demographics is so good.
Those who persist and complete public school are not considered anything - nor expected to do particularly well, even those whose demographics match that of the homeschoolers.
And kids who homeschool are getting less good an education because their needs are being addressed personally through tailored education, and they become more rigid and fail to learn how to live in the regular world.
*******
Do I have it right?
Oh good grief. Try reading my posts.
I didn't call THEM failures. I said homeschooling was a failure for them. If something doesn't work for you, you quit doing it and find something else. At least if you have options and any sense you do.
I'm sure there are people for whom public schooling didn't work who go on to homeschool and have it work. The problem is, it's an experiment. You don't know it's going to work going in. You can only teach what you know to teach so you're limited to what the teacher knows. There are other more tried and true methods, such as finding a better fit in a school which is what we did when the curriculum at our kids old school was a problem for dd#1. Another choice would have been to have kept her in tutoring. I have an aversion to spending $4000 a year undoing a problem the school is creating so we found a school with a curriculum that didn't confuse her like Everyday Mathematics did (it's not a sound program for kids who are expected to go on to algebra anyway).
Yes, those who complete homeschooling would represent a very filtered and select group. I would expect that those for whom homeschooling didn't work would have quit long before graduation. So you're looking at only the success stories. That's HUGE in comparing homeschooling to public schooling. We graduate kids at the bottom of the class too and have to report our drop out rate to the state.
Nope. I'd expect those who match the demographic of homeschoolers in public school to do just as well. Did you not read where I wrote that the issue is we don't know if homeschooled kids do better than they would have in a public school. They have the same things going for them either way. IMO, they have more opportunity in a public school so they could do better there. Of course, I'm not talking really bad schools and they do exist. There are some districts where, as bad as I think homeschooling would be with me as the teacher due to me not being an expert in all subjects would be, I'd consider it better than the school but that would be a reflection of how bad those schools are not how good I am or homeschooling is.
I think tailoring an education teaches a child they should be catered to. The world will not tailor anything to them. In fact, it will expect them to adapt. So yes, I see an inherent danger here. This runs counter to skills I think school can teach them. I also think catering to a child like this would stifle creativity. Necessity is the mother of invention. You develop the skills you need to succeed in your environment. For example, I'm a very fast learner. Had to be. I worked in a field with a half life of information of about 18 months for years. That is not a trait I would have developed on my own if I'd been allowed to learn at my own pace.
My daughter complains sometimes that things are too slow or she thinks they're boring and I tell her to suck it up because education isn't all about entertaining her. I tell her, if it's that easy, to get her work done and work on something else if she's bored. I do the same with kids in my class. I'll be glad to give them another assignment when they're done but they, usually, don't take more work if it's not forced on them. Kids are all for making things more to their liking until they find out there's extra work in it for them.
At the risk of going off-topic, I don't buy the homeschool-not-to-work argument. Not to go too far off tangent, but being a parent IS work. Teaching your kids IS work. In many cases it's a lot less stressful and a lot more relaxing (and often gets you more respect from some in society, not to mention a salary) to go to a paying job. Teaching is a job and is worthy of respect, whether you're teaching your own kids or someone else's.
I agree, though, that there are some homeschooling families out there who seem to have made it their mission in life to demonize the public schools. In their case it's not that the schools aren't meeting their individual children's needs, but that they believe all public schools are all bad (and teach their children the same viewpoint). On the other hand, there are those who believe all homeschooling to be bad, too, so it certainly goes both ways.
I agree that much of the different ways in which we on this board and in general across the United States think of homeschooling or public schools has much to do with our own personal experiences as well as where we live. I am lucky to live in a city with a wide selection of public schools, including magnets, but those who live in, say, a small town with one school, don't have that luxury.
Some women prefer to be at home. And I have to disagree. Being a parent is not work. It's just being a parent. It's not a job. It's taking care of your life. That's what we do when we're off work .
I could never consider my family a job. What I do at home is way different than anything I do at work. I do it my way and at my pace and to my specifications. No boss telling me what to do. While I find being home boring, which is why I don't do it, I can see why some women prefer to stay home rather than get a paying job.
I just kind of laugh at my friend. Homeschooling was never mentioned until that last child hit school and her husband started talking about what they'd do with the extra money now that she'd be going back to work. It's so obvious that homeschooling one child of five was her justification for not getting a job. I'm sure when this one graduates, another will need homeschooling . To each his own.
Fortunately, she and her husband are smart and educated. Their kids have the deck stacked for them no matter where they go. They'll do fine either way.
Some women prefer to be at home. And I have to disagree. Being a parent is not work. It's just being a parent. It's not a job. It's taking care of your life. That's what we do when we're off work .
I could never consider my family a job. What I do at home is way different than anything I do at work. I do it my way and at my pace and to my specifications. No boss telling me what to do. While I find being home boring, which is why I don't do it, I can see why some women prefer to stay home rather than get a paying job.
It's so obvious that homeschooling one child of five was her justification for not getting a job.
Fortunately, she and her husband are smart and educated. Their kids have the deck stacked for them no matter where they go. They'll do fine either way.
You sound like somebody from the 50's. It has been acknowledged in the United States that staying home to take care of children and household is work.
It is so good that you can read your "friend's" mind. I hope she has other friends.
And I am also thrilled to know that every child of smart, educated parents will do fine... though it does make me wonder about those kids I thought I saw who didn't. Huh. Must be an illusion.
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I think the mom has tried to recruit everyone but me. She knows I'm a teacher. I guess she figures I'm the enemy 
. I'm going to have to call her. 
. I wonder how much I could get per lab? On second thought, it would take way too long to recoup my investment and I don't think parents would be happy if I used the cheap versions of labs if they're paying for them.
