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Old 05-19-2023, 01:15 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,986 posts, read 106,584,071 times
Reputation: 115662

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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
No they don't!! Because there isn't a reason! It might be easy to pull the wool over the eyes of Russians but most people in the world aren't stupid! Putin has militarily invaded a neighbouring country! He's basically done what Hitler did in Poland in 1939!! Russia and Putin are the pariah's of the world! Until Russia buggers off back to its own side of the border it will continue to be the world pariah too!
And what are the chances of that happening?




Though Xi supported that principle, himself. That doesn't mean it's any more likely to happen, though.
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Old 05-19-2023, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,137,027 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
No they don't!! Because there isn't a reason! It might be easy to pull the wool over the eyes of Russians but most people in the world aren't stupid! Putin has militarily invaded a neighbouring country! He's basically done what Hitler did in Poland in 1939!! Russia and Putin are the pariah's of the world! Until Russia buggers off back to its own side of the border it will continue to be the world pariah too!
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.
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Old 05-19-2023, 07:13 PM
 
Location: SE UK
14,759 posts, read 11,837,239 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.
What the Russians 'see' is irrelevant, the fact is the Ukraine IS NOT part of Russia it is a neighbouring country! The UK used to be part of the Roman Empire, should the Italians invade Kent? The US used to be part of the UK that doesn't mean the UK has a right to invade New England either does it!
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Old 05-19-2023, 07:37 PM
rfb
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,593 posts, read 6,312,699 times
Reputation: 2801
Apparently one of the greatest threats to Russia is American comedians. Yes, Steven Colbert is on the list of Russia's "500 most hated" list. lol

Moscow bans ‘500 Americans’ from Russia including CNN journalists
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Old 05-19-2023, 08:24 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,986 posts, read 106,584,071 times
Reputation: 115662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.
And this is why the "conflict" can never be resolved: Russians see "history", where the rest of the world sees international borders being violated.

Imagine what would happen to Russia if Mongolia suddenly decided to "see history" when it looked north at the Russian border. Or if China did the same, when looking at "northern Manchuria", across the Amur and Ussuri Rivers.
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Old 05-20-2023, 02:58 AM
 
Location: france
826 posts, read 618,203 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.



So you agree to give back Königsberg to Germany, Kuril Island to Japan, Karelia to Finlandia and so on?

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Old 05-20-2023, 11:58 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,986 posts, read 106,584,071 times
Reputation: 115662
Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
So you agree to give back Königsberg to Germany, Kuril Island to Japan, Karelia to Finlandia and so on?

No, give back E Prussia to the original inhabitants, whom Germany invaded. Give back the Kurils to the Ainu.
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Old 05-20-2023, 05:06 PM
 
402 posts, read 212,068 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.
Why not to go further - to 11th century - to Kievan Rus.
"The modern nations of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine all claim Kievan Rus' as their cultural ancestor,[d] with Belarus and Russia deriving their names from it. At its greatest extent in the mid-11th century, Kievan Rus' stretched from the White Sea in the north to the Black Sea in the south and from the headwaters of the Vistula in the west to the Taman Peninsula in the east,[15][16] uniting the East Slavic tribes.[10]" - Wiki

Now, imagine that Ukraine will decide to call their country "Kievan Rus". And "unite" with Belarus and Russia?
Why not - they themselves claim Kievan Rus as their cultural ancestor.
I think after they won this war Ukranians need to keep going...and unite all "Rus'' people and rule them...
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Old 05-21-2023, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,664 posts, read 4,807,545 times
Reputation: 4862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Where you see a neighboring country, Russians see history. btw, do you know that Bakhmut (Artemovsk is a Soviet name) was founded by Ivan the Terrible? (I'm not sure what "Terrible" correct translation, Russian "Grozny" is not "Terrible", may be "Redoubtable", I don't know. Let he be Ivan IV.)

Putin joined Crimea in 2014, and for you it was an invasion of a neighboring country. But for most Russians, this is history (and the military base that Ukraine could have given to NATO after the coup, of course, but today is about history). For most Russians, Crimea is not a "neighboring country". Why do Russians consider Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine for the same reason) their own land? Because they founded the cities of the Crimea and the Black Sea coast of Ukraine. Why did they do it? Because Catherine the Great was able to conquer this territory. Why did she want to do this? Because it was the last fragment of the Golden Horde that did not enter Russia (of course, geopolitical interests were important, but the reason for the conflict between Russia and Crimea is historical). Formation of the Russian state after the Mongol-Tatar yoke began with the battle with the Crimean ruler Mamai. In the Battle of Kulikovo, Moscow prince showed that Moscow was not subordinate to any other fragments of the Horde, except directly to the Genghisides (after 3 years, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow and the Russian prince did not resist). But a start had been made. Ivan IV was able to capture main centers of the Golden Horde (Kazan, Astrakhan), but could not reach the Crimea. Catherine did this 200 years later, and later Russians fought with Europeans for this peninsula, which was generously watered with Russian blood. And now you are talking about a neighboring country, but Russians see history.

The history of Crimea is the history of many centuries for Russians, and not the history of a neighbouring country.
Russia might see history, but history is in the past. The rest of the world lives in the present and looking at the future. Russia recognized Ukraine and agreed to respect its borders and sovereignty some 30 years ago. A whole generation has grown up outside of the Soviet Union and have a strong Ukrainian identity and couldn’t care less what people are seeing in Moscow and other Russian cities. Yes many Ukrainians speak Russian but that doesn’t make them any less Ukrainian, just like most Irish people speak English but it doesn’t make them any less Irish.

And yes Russia developed Novorossiya aka New Russia, just like England developed New England and France developed New France and Spain developed New Spain, but now these areas have been decolonized and the founding countries no longer lay any claim to them. They are now governed by local people, and now Ukrainians are governing themselves. Hopefully after this war ends Russia will come to realize this. It also took the British 30 years after loosing the 13 colonies and the war of 1812 to finally admit to themselves that the US was a sovereign nation.
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Old 05-21-2023, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,137,027 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
No they don't!! Because there isn't a reason! It might be easy to pull the wool over the eyes of Russians but most people in the world aren't stupid! Putin has militarily invaded a neighbouring country! He's basically done what Hitler did in Poland in 1939!! Russia and Putin are the pariah's of the world! Until Russia buggers off back to its own side of the border it will continue to be the world pariah too!
When Ms. Nuland supports the protesters and then the protesters overthrow an absolutely legitimate president during an armed coup - can this be a reason? When Ms. Nuland participates in the formation of the new government of Ukraine, and Mr. Biden gives a press conference in the chair of the President of Ukraine - can this be a reason? Have you forgotten what was the beginning of the conflict?
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