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Old 06-05-2023, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I didn't miss the land grab, which as you point out, was too blatant to miss, and appeared to follow the same playbook as in Georgia 2008, Transnistria, and so on. But I missed the dead woman image. Did that really make it into the Western media?
I saw it. I'm not going to pretend to remember which channel carried it, but I definitely saw it on TV, not YouTube. Either way, given the image's sole purpose was to shock and inflame, its true value is negligible, so the criticism of "the West didn't see it" is nonsensical. There was nothing to see.
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Old 06-05-2023, 03:46 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
I saw it. I'm not going to pretend to remember which channel carried it, but I definitely saw it on TV, not YouTube. Either way, given the image's sole purpose was to inflame and shock, its true value is negligible, so the criticism of "the West didn't see it" is nonsensical. There was nothing to see.
Thank you for answering my questions. So that was the only image, the only "proof" that appeared in the West, of Russian claims of atrocities against Russians? (Just clarifiying.) Because some people here have said earlier on these threads, that there were various damning videos shown on Russian TV.
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Thank you for answering my questions. So that was the only image, the only "proof" that appeared in the West, of Russian claims of atrocities against Russians? (Just clarifiying.) Because some people here have said earlier on these threads, that there were various damning videos shown on Russian TV.
Anything that's shown on Russian state-controlled TV is worthless on its face by definition. They have been caught doctoring videos and photographs, passing things off for other things and taking things out of context so often, nobody should ever trust them to call water wet. So it really doesn't matter if those images are being shown in the West, unless they're shown with the appropriate disclaimer. The image in question is far from being the only one Russia is using for propaganda fodder, nor is it the only one that's made it over here. But plenty of warzone imagery has been shown on American TV channels of either political persuasion - both propaganda- and independently-sourced.
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:28 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
Anything that's shown on Russian state-controlled TV is worthless on its face by definition. They have been caught doctoring videos and photographs, passing things off for other things and taking things out of context so often, nobody should ever trust them to call water wet. So it really doesn't matter if those images are being shown in the West, unless they're shown with the appropriate disclaimer. The image in question is far from being the only one Russia is using for propaganda fodder, nor is it the only one that's made it over here. But plenty of warzone imagery has been shown on American TV channels of either political persuasion - both propaganda- and independently-sourced.
You're referring to the current war, not 2014?

Yes, I know; I used to dismiss the claims of atrocities from back then, but after so much insistence from our C-D colleagues over there, that crimes were perpetrated by Ukraine, I decided to consider the possibility they might be right. This is why I've said since early on in the war, that everything needs to be investigated by an impartial international body; all grievances on both sides, from the earlier era to the present. It doesn't matter if one side thinks it's a waste of time because the reports were fake news; a truly impartial investigation would consider all complaints. Then if it concluded, that some of the reports had no merit, its conclusion would be credible.

And btw, there really were some war crimes committed by Ukraine earlier in this war. Z even mentioned them, as I recall. He didn't deny it. Yes, I know--they were probably far fewer than from the Russian side. I'm only saying--we need to get the facts straight and hold both sides accountable.
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Old 06-06-2023, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
You're referring to the current war, not 2014?
The current war started in 2014. So I'm referring to the entire timeline.
Quote:
Yes, I know; I used to dismiss the claims of atrocities from back then, but after so much insistence from our C-D colleagues over there, that crimes were perpetrated by Ukraine
And that narrative continues. Russia maintains that Ukrainians are shooting at their own people even in the situations where a five-year-old could tell this is a lie.
Quote:
I decided to consider the possibility they might be right. This is why I've said since early on in the war, that everything needs to be investigated by an impartial international body; all grievances on both sides, from the earlier era to the present. It doesn't matter if one side thinks it's a waste of time because the reports were fake news; a truly impartial investigation would consider all complaints. Then if it concluded, that some of the reports had no merit, its conclusion would be credible.
It's a noble goal, but it will never happen. Russia will never let it.
Quote:
And btw, there really were some war crimes committed by Ukraine earlier in this war. Z even mentioned them, as I recall. He didn't deny it. Yes, I know--they were probably far fewer than from the Russian side. I'm only saying--we need to get the facts straight and hold both sides accountable.
I don't buy into the trumpian "both sides" argument, as it puts both the perpetrator and the victim on equal footing, at least optically. The war crimes Ukraine has committed are invisible in their numbers and impact compared to Bucha, Mariupol and, as of yesterday, the Kakhovka Dam, not to mention the literal daily bombings of civilian areas. I'm not saying a full accounting isn't needed - I'm just saying that priorities need to be established. And as far as holding both sides responsible - given the relative magnitudes of the offenses, Ukraine has more than "served its time" already. Many, many times over.
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Old 06-06-2023, 05:43 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
The current war started in 2014. So I'm referring to the entire timeline.
Footage from 2014's war and the lead-up to it was shown on TV in the US and elsewhere in the West? Including Ukrainian attacks on Russians? (Again, just trying to clarify. Some of your statements in that regard are a bit vague.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
And that narrative continues. Russia maintains that Ukrainians are shooting at their own people even in the situations where a five-year-old could tell this is a lie.
It's a noble goal, but it will never happen. Russia will never let it.
Well then it would become clear to the rest of the world who's been putting out fake news. But an impartial investigation would have to start out with the proposal of investigating both sides. Then if Russia refused, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Making it impartial might be the only way to get Russia interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;

I don't buy into the trumpian "both sides" argument, as it puts both the perpetrator and the victim on equal footing, at least optically.
The problem here is, that there's a dispute over who is the perpetrator, and who's the victim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
The war crimes Ukraine has committed are invisible in their numbers and impact compared to Bucha, Mariupol and, as of yesterday, the Kakhovka Dam, not to mention the literal daily bombings of civilian areas. I'm not saying a full accounting isn't needed - I'm just saying that priorities need to be established. And as far as holding both sides responsible - given the relative magnitudes of the offenses, Ukraine has more than "served its time" already. Many, many times over.
Yes, but calling them on whatever incidents there have been of war crimes (and there were some in the news, since Feb/March 2022) would send the message to them and their troops, that all parties must abide by the Geneva Conventions, not just the invader/aggressor.
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Old 06-06-2023, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Footage from 2014's war and the lead-up to it was shown on TV in the US and elsewhere in the West? Including Ukrainian attacks on Russians?
What attacks? When and where did Ukraine ever attack Russia?
Quote:
(Again, just trying to clarify. Some of your statements in that regard are a bit vague.)
My statements in that regard couldn't possibly be any less vague. Russia has shown the rest of the world what it had wanted to show. As an example, RT was a fairly popular network before it was sanctioned, and much of their footage had been picked up by other news outlets in 2014 and beyond. Including what Russia has (falsely) claimed to be Ukrainian attacks on Russians. Of course, it didn't show the blatant land grab that was Crimea, because not even the Russian government is stupid enough to tell on themselves.
Quote:
Well then it would become clear to the rest of the world who's been putting out fake news. But an impartial investigation would have to start out with the proposal of investigating both sides. Then if Russia refused, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Making it impartial might be the only way to get Russia interested.
If there still remains a single person in the rest of the world who needs convincing that Russia has been waging a disinformation campaign for at least nine years (in reality, for much longer, including Georgia in 2008 and Afghanistan in the 80s), then that person doesn't, in fact, need convincing. Willful blindness is not curable.

The Russian government, as constructed, isn't in the habit of letting the international (read: Western) community inspect anything that has to do with itself, because it views the collective West as an ideological enemy and considers itself above reproach. Russia's agreement to let the international community investigate it isn't a prerequisite to the rest of the world knowing who's in the wrong. Russia is wrong. Full stop.
Quote:
The problem here is, that there's a dispute over who is the perpetrator, and who's the victim.
No. There's not. There really, really is not.
Quote:
Yes, but calling them on whatever incidents there have been of war crimes (and there were some in the news, since Feb/March 2022)
Could you cite some?
Quote:
would send the message to them and their troops, that all parties must abide by the Geneva Conventions, not just the invader/aggressor.
The invader is NOT, in fact, abiding by the Geneva convention. And nothing in this world will convince them to do so. The Ukrainian military is not wantonly destroying civil infrastructure or literally raping and pillaging, as well as killing, civilians. Russia is. So, calling out the victim for, metaphorically speaking, punching one of the aggressor's soldiers in the balls when the aggressor has cut off the heads of 1000 of the victim's people is inviting a rather dangerous false equivalency. Put in another way: the use of excessive force in self-defense may need to be investigated, but not before the perpetrator of the crime against which the self-defense was needed (and which was orders of magnitude more heinous) is punished.

Last edited by highlanderfil; 06-06-2023 at 08:40 PM..
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
What attacks? When and where did Ukraine ever attack Russia?
Now you're just being obtuse. The question wasn't about Ukrainians attacking Russia. Read it again.

I'm trying to determine what you were referring to in this statement:
Quote:
plenty of warzone imagery has been shown on American TV channels of either political persuasion
What kind of warzone imagery? During which part of the war? Implicating which side?

Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
My statements in that regard couldn't possibly be any less vague. Russia has shown the rest of the world what it had wanted to show. As an example, RT was a fairly popular network before it was sanctioned, and much of their footage had been picked up by other news outlets in 2014 and beyond. Including what Russia has (falsely) claimed to be Ukrainian attacks on Russians.
OK, now we're getting somewhere. Thank you. I didn't know that had been shown on US (and allies') TV (that wasn't an RT channel).
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
Of course, it didn't show the blatant land grab that was Crimea, because not even the Russian government is stupid enough to tell on themselves.If there still remains a single person in the rest of the world who needs convincing that Russia has been waging a disinformation campaign for at least nine years (in reality, for much longer, including Georgia in 2008 and Afghanistan in the 80s), then that person doesn't, in fact, need convincing. Willful blindness is not curable.

The Russian government, as constructed, isn't in the habit of letting the international (read: Western) community inspect anything that has to do with itself, because it views the collective West as an ideological enemy and considers itself above reproach. Russia's agreement to let the international community investigate it isn't a prerequisite to the rest of the world knowing who's in the wrong. Russia is wrong. Full stop.
No. There's not. There really, really is not.Could you cite some?
I'd have to dig back through these war threads. It was discussed here. There were reported incidents, reported by Western press. I think the NY Times covered it, to name one outlet. Sometime in the early part of the war, roughly. That really shouldn't surprise anyone, considering that the Azov batallion was (still is?) involved. They're a rogue group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
The invader is NOT, in fact, abiding by the Geneva convention. And nothing in this world will convince them to do so. The Ukrainian military is not wantonly destroying civil infrastructure or literally raping and pillaging, as well as killing, civilians. Russia is. So, calling out the victim for, metaphorically speaking, punching one of the aggressor's soldiers in the balls when the aggressor has cut off the heads of 1000 of the victim's people is inviting a rather dangerous false equivalency. Put in another way: the use of excessive force in self-defense may need to be investigated, but not before the perpetrator of the crime against which the self-defense was needed (and which was orders of magnitude more heinous) is punished.
OK, ok. sheesh

Here's something I found just now, as I was looking for articles mentioning the earlier war crimes by Ukraine troops. This justice organization agrees that Ukraine should be investigated as well as Russia:
https://verdict.justia.com/2023/03/1...ian-war-crimes

Quote:
Ukraine’s request for a special international tribunal for Russia’s crime of aggression is garnering significant support. But even if all these efforts come to pass, this still leaves a potential accountability gap.

Justice needs to be justice for all, and that means accountability for war crimes by Ukrainians, as well. Despite promises by the Ukrainian government, no reports of state investigations into credible allegations of Ukrainian war crimes have been made. Similarly, while the International Criminal Court has been investigating war crimes in Ukraine, no evidence currently shows that the ICC has looked into or that Ukraine has facilitated investigation of possible Ukrainian crimes.


Of course, both known and alleged Russian wrongdoing during the conflict massively dwarfs the accusations against Ukrainian forces. Russians’ unrelenting brutality seems to be a feature rather than a bug of its warfighting strategy.


But that can’t take Ukraine off the hook for its own possible dirty deeds. Human rights group Amnesty International documented numerous possible Ukrainian violations of international law that placed innocent civilians at risk. Russians have also accused the Azov Regiment, a far-right Ukrainian paramilitary unit, of targeting civilians fleeing Mariupol. An April 2022 video seems to show Ukrainian soldiers kill a wounded and captured Russian soldier as well as document multiple other possible violations with an apparent Russian soldier, with a head wound, and his hands tied dead nearby. In October 22, 2022, the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine concluded that Ukraine committed a war crime in this video as well as in another similar incident.
It's that incident with the wounded Russian soldier I was recalling, and there seemed to be other similar ones at the time.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-06-2023 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 06-07-2023, 12:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Now you're just being obtuse. The question wasn't about Ukrainians attacking Russia. Read it again.
Am I? Is this not text YOU wrote?
Quote:
Including Ukrainian attacks on Russians?
So, I ask you again. What Ukrainian attacks on Russians are you referring to and to what end?
Quote:
I'm trying to determine what you were referring to in this statement:
What kind of warzone imagery? During which part of the war? Implicating which side?
All parts of the war, 2014 to the present. More specifically, since at the time we were talking about the video of the dead woman, I was referring to the videos Russians have put out in an effort to justify everything they were doing, beginning with the DNR/LNR and Crimea takeovers and up to and including today.
Quote:
OK, now we're getting somewhere. Thank you. I didn't know that had been shown on US (and allies') TV (that wasn't an RT channel). I'd have to dig back through these war threads. It was discussed here. There were reported incidents, reported by Western press. I think the NY Times covered it, to name one outlet. Sometime in the early part of the war, roughly. That really shouldn't surprise anyone, considering that the Azov batallion was (still is?) involved. They're a rogue group.
Says who? Moreover, so what? They're Ukraine's rogue group. Russia is using their right-wing ideology as pretense for this entire war. How would you feel if China invaded the U.S. if, say, a few of their nationals were beaten up in West Virginia by some Proud Boys?
Quote:
Here's something I found just now, as I was looking for articles mentioning the earlier war crimes by Ukraine troops. This justice organization agrees that Ukraine should be investigated as well as Russia:
https://verdict.justia.com/2023/03/1...ian-war-crimes
I am not disputing the fact that there are some war crimes occurring on the fringes for which Ukraine is responsible. But it's incredible to me that you continue to perseverate on the 0.01% while completely glossing over the other 99.99%. For every one invocation of "let's investigate Ukraine", you should be clamoring thousands of times over for Russia to be put on trial first. I'm not seeing that.

This source you linked to cites Amnesty International. It's pretty much a common fact these days that AI, wittingly or unwittingly, have turned into Putin's useful idiots, not least because they, like Justia and like yourself, are ostensibly putting Ukraine and Russia on equal footing when it comes to there being "bad people on both sides" and, in doing so, are basically legitimizing what Putin is doing, even though his "response" (which, of course, is a fallacy given he started the whole thing) is unconscionably disproportionate to the offenses he claims his people have suffered.
Quote:
It's that incident with the wounded Russian soldier I was recalling, and there seemed to be other similar ones at the time.
A man comes to your home. He rapes and murders your daughters, he kills your husband, he brutally dismembers your dog and smashes your cat's skull on the wall. Then, for good measure, he chucks your washing machine out the window and takes a dump on your carpet. You somehow manage to escape, hide and then, when he, tired of his own brutality, pounds a bottle of vodka and passes out, you go Gerard Butler in "Law Abiding Citizen" on him. You see where I'm going with this analogy? I'm not saying murdering PoWs is cool. But I'm saying that one or two Russian PoWs killed is such small potatoes in comparison to thousands of civilians Russia has murdered, raped and kidnapped so far that talking about both groups in the same breath is, at a minimum, a rank example of whataboutism and is in incredibly poor taste. Let the war end, let Putin and his cronies hang in the Hague and let Russia use its continually increasing wealth (make no mistake - Russia continues to rake energy money in by the barrelful) to rebuild Ukraine - and then and only then can we talk about the three poor unarmed Russian soldiers and sticking the dude, whose entire village was wiped out by his victims' colleagues, in military jail. But not before.

Last edited by highlanderfil; 06-07-2023 at 12:37 AM..
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Old 06-07-2023, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
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There is a difference between killing a soldier on the battlefield and a soldier that has surrendered and been captured. After all it is in Ukraine’s self interest to uphold the rights of POWs as that would encourage more Russian soldiers to surrender. Furthermore once those POWs eventually return home they would spread the news of how nicely they were treated and that Ukraine isn’t the real enemy.

Also azov battalion isn’t some fringe group that is remotely comparable to proud boys. They are government sanctioned and has been incorporated into the Ukrainian National guard who openly uphold Nazie ideology and symbology.

As far as Ukrainian attacks on Russians, I think it’s safe to assume that Ruth was referring to rusophone Ukrainians which is a different thing than Russian nationals which I’m assuming is what you thought the conversation was about.

In any case it was an internal issue of Ukraine and Russia shouldn’t have encouraged separatist movements over this issue and trigger a “civil war”. As bad as things may have been or were heading, there was still opportunity for rusophone Ukrainians to politically push back to ensure their rights and interests.

It would be like if Trump invaded Canada when the Trucker protests were going on.

Also if you look deeper, I don’t think Russia really cares about Russian language rights in Ukraine, what really triggered them in 2014 was that they got insecure and thought that if they didn’t do something that Ukraine would fall out of the grasps of Russia and would no longer be a client state like Belarus. They were able to reign in Ukraine after the Orange revolution in 2004 but they were not confident they could pull it off again. But ironically all they have done is soured relations even more to the point that Ukrainians no longer think of Russian’s as a brotherly nation.
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