Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If that’s the dynamic in the US I’d hate to see what it is in Scandinavia.
It's not the dynamic in the U.S I'm old fashioned., I want my guy to be the leader in many ways. But it doesn't mean he makes all the decisions if they are bad decisions. My honey and I just bought a house but his name couldn't be on it because his credit is bad. Last week he hit a deer and totaled his work truck. I had to co-sign for the same reason.
My honey is a great guy, hard working and treats me like gold. But he's worse ADD than even I am, he's unorganized, he forgets to pay bills. So guess what, he's not going to be in charge in that area.
Our new house needs a lot of works and every appliance needs to be replaced, including the heating and cooling system. Money is tight. I would be mad if was going to spend money on a trip right now, yes. Me saying "we don't have money for this trip right now, tell Jason to bring someone else", it's not because feminism has taught me to emasculate my man or to see him as incompetent, it's because I want to make sure when we need a new roof or septic system the money is there, and my honey is not good with money.
I don't know why people on these forums continually try to take a specific behavior and try to make it a trait of an entire gender.
OP has no idea what their marriage is like. Maybe his wife pays most of the bills while he sneaking around getting massages. It sounds weird to me to go away with a client though. If my honey wanted to take a trip with the massage therapist he sneaks off to see, I'd think there was more than massage going on, just saying.
I hope the OP reflects on this. I think the issue may be with the massage therapist trying to make get-away dates with his/her clients, not about husbands standing up to their wives. Most men I know that have wives and families prefer the company of the family versus that of a single person, just not that much in common to go on a get-away. Also, with children involved, often times parents share in the caretaking and household duties, so one parent going off creates an issue for the family.
Seems in this case, there really isn't any kind of debate. Definitely seems more like a relationship issue, not with husbands standing up to their wives, but massage therapist trying to have a get-away weekend with clients. Seems kind of creepy to me, and my bet is that these men are using the "wife escape" clause as to not offend the OP.
My parent's (and this has been the trend for a lot of marriages I've seen over many years) relationship has changed over time. When they first got married, my father was in charge. He made the most money, he knew how to fix things around the house, he took care of the cars and the yard, etc. Before I came along, my mother made less money and her responsibilities were to make dinner and keep the house clean.
My dad handled the finances, he paid the bills. He made most of the "big" decisions that affected the two of them.
Then I came along. Mom was in charge of me and the household. My dad had very little say in how I was raised, what I did, etc. Part of that was because he was gone often for work, but over time, he ceded complete control of my upbringing to her.
Over time, he screwed up. First he lost a lot of money in the stock market, not just his money, but THEIR money. The first time, nothing changed. The second time he did it, my mother started to be more involved with the finances.
He got laid off for a few months, and then it was my mother bringing in the money to pay the bills. She took over doing the bills because she had a better idea of how much she'd be bringing in on a monthly basis. After he got another job, she kept doing the bills.
Over the course of 40+ years, all the times my dad screwed up, did something wrong... added up. Like how he refused to pay a plumber to fix a leaky sink, and the kitchen and living room ended up being flooded because he didn't fix it right. Or how he tried to replace a hot water heater in the attic and instead leaked a ton of water through the ceiling, or trying to run cable lines through the attic he stepped off the joists and put a large hole in the family room ceiling.
At the end of their marriage, my dad didn't make ANY decisions, my mother handled everything. Things went a lot smoother that way!
My parent's (and this has been the trend for a lot of marriages I've seen over many years) relationship has changed over time. When they first got married, my father was in charge. He made the most money, he knew how to fix things around the house, he took care of the cars and the yard, etc. Before I came along, my mother made less money and her responsibilities were to make dinner and keep the house clean.
My dad handled the finances, he paid the bills. He made most of the "big" decisions that affected the two of them.
Then I came along. Mom was in charge of me and the household. My dad had very little say in how I was raised, what I did, etc. Part of that was because he was gone often for work, but over time, he ceded complete control of my upbringing to her.
Over time, he screwed up. First he lost a lot of money in the stock market, not just his money, but THEIR money. The first time, nothing changed. The second time he did it, my mother started to be more involved with the finances.
He got laid off for a few months, and then it was my mother bringing in the money to pay the bills. She took over doing the bills because she had a better idea of how much she'd be bringing in on a monthly basis. After he got another job, she kept doing the bills.
Over the course of 40+ years, all the times my dad screwed up, did something wrong... added up. Like how he refused to pay a plumber to fix a leaky sink, and the kitchen and living room ended up being flooded because he didn't fix it right. Or how he tried to replace a hot water heater in the attic and instead leaked a ton of water through the ceiling, or trying to run cable lines through the attic he stepped off the joists and put a large hole in the family room ceiling.
At the end of their marriage, my dad didn't make ANY decisions, my mother handled everything. Things went a lot smoother that way!
My parents were just the opposite. My dad was always known to cook a mighty fine dinner and he did his share in keeping the house clean. When he walked in the door on payday the first thing he did was hand my mother his check. She paid the bills with THEIR money. My mother also worked but her paycheck was also THEIR money. No one person made any decisions on what was spent on what. It was a decision where they sat down and talked it out. If both didn't agree, it wasn't done. My dad's job never laid off but did have a stoppage because of a union strike. Daddy never sat around. He didn't want to walk the picket line so he worked for a man in town helping clean up his rental properties. He was a handyman and loved working with wood. When my mother said she'd like a screened porch on the back of the house, my dad talked to a retired carpenter who helped him build a nice screened porch for her. My dad did 90% of the work. He made my mother a couple nice work desks. After they both retired, while my mother was sewing on one table, he sat close by on the other, looking at the computer. As far as raising my brother and I, that was joint leadership also. I always dreaded "just wait till your father gets home!" When I heard that, I knew I'd be sitting down very softly after the spanking I'd get from my dad, and he never used anything but his hand, thank goodness.
I think it's bullspit reinforced by the media with the hands of feminist behind it back in the early days of womens liberation. In the early days of television and good 'ol american gender roles, women were more or less subserviant, women's lib came along demanding they be treated like humans. Out goes Ralph Cramden, Ricky Ricardo, and James Evans...hello Heathcliff Huxtable, Al Bundy, and Fred Flintstone. The media flips portrayal and creates the stereotype of the bossy housewife and the easily breaking husband. Even Darren had Samantha in control and she was a witch. Not to mention women wanting their voice being heard and many are not push-overs willing to stand up for themselves. They see it on tv and are sick of the reality, which is in part where I think it stems from. Not saying we need to hop in the wayback machine...just something I noticed and is just a small factor.
Let's hear it for subservience! Boy, wasn't that great? And while we're at it, let's dial back the Civil Rights movement, so we won't have any more uppity .... "those" people....around. Everyone needs to know their place! Yes sir! At least that would do away with white male unemployment, wouldn't it? Who let all those other people into the job market, in the first place?! Boy, this country's really gone to the dogs, hasn't it?
I'm going to try to be as delicate as possible with this answer.
There are at least a couple of fairly obvious reasons why, generally, men do not "stand up to their wives".
The first is sexual intimacy. No man looks forward to suffering through a drought when the Mrs. is unhappy, if that makes any sense.
The second reason is due to general behavioral patterns between men and women. Typically women are inclined to have more visibly emotional reactions to things. Men are emotional as well, but their surface behavior more often ranges from practical to aggressive. The result of this is, if and when any serious disagreements ever arise, women are almost always able to publicly frame the situation in a way that makes the man the bad guy.
An example would be when a couple has a private disagreement and the guy reacts to it by publicly raising his voice towards his spouse. It's a bad look. Especially when her reaction is something that subtly pulls at people's heartstrings, like a quiet but sustained whispering campaign where she makes all of her friends and family aware of the ways the guy is not meeting her needs. As a pattern, and perhaps sometimes without even realizing it, women are sophisticated enough to build legions of followers (including the law) to support them in disagreements with their husbands -- even when none of those followers have the slightest clue what initiated the disagreement or who really carries the greater weight of the blame, so to speak.
On a slightly unrelated note, I believe this is one of the reasons women are often inclined to say they have a strong preference for men with confidence. Perhaps in the back of their minds they're aware they have the ability to exert sexual and emotional control over the "typical" man, and therefore find it challenging to fully respect or admire a man who doesn't have the confidence and even the intelligence to hold his own in a battle of wills against them.
Again this is all general. There's no need for anyone to attack me if your specific personality or marriage or relationship falls outside of these patterns.
With all of that said, going back to the OP's original concerns, I really wouldn't consider it alarming to witness a married man not getting his way at all times. Because you're not witnessing the ways the wives are compromising as well. When two people love one another, there's a lot of give and take between them that others don't see. And let's just be real, these couples probably agree more often than you realize. Like multiple other posters have already pointed out, people definitely use their spouses as excuses (aka polite lies) to get out of things they didn't really want to do in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover
I hesitated to put this here or the Relationship Forum, but I prefer to run it here as it's so debatable.
I try to downplay the statement (You Never Say No To Your Wife or PBT/Power Behind The Throne) but I see it too often, the fear of saying No to the wife.
I've done massage for 30-40 years and have had many a married man on my table and I've heard too many stories.
One of my massage clients would love to join me on one of my 1-day trips to L.A., going to museums, as he loves Art. Wife not interested, and? She won't allow him to go without her!
My cousin is snowbirding it in western AZ this winter, and I've offered to pay their RT fares to L.A. from Vegas for a 2 day venture, since neither has ever been there. He'd love to go with, but the wife is not interested, and she's the boss! So as not to create friction, he's not going.
Having read a bio of Michelle Obama, Barrack was so smitten with her, he called her The Boss from the beginning of their marriage. "No, your smoking days are over!" "Yes, Boss!"
I learned very late on, that my Father never wanted children (my mother had 3, which explains why he never had much time for us, can't blame him!) and he wanted to move far away from family to Colorado, and she wanted to remain close to family. And? Who won that battle?
When I put my house up for sale, a couple came to look at it, the husband went wild with job at seeing my work bench and storage area in my garage, saying "Perfect!" The wife grimaced, and the agent told me, privately: You should know, it's the woman who makes these decisions! House not sold!
What's your take on this "mystery"?
It's been said, true love is wanting the other to be as happy as possible, and?
I hesitated to put this here or the Relationship Forum, but I prefer to run it here as it's so debatable.
I try to downplay the statement (You Never Say No To Your Wife or PBT/Power Behind The Throne) but I see it too often, the fear of saying No to the wife.
I've done massage for 30-40 years and have had many a married man on my table and I've heard too many stories.
One of my massage clients would love to join me on one of my 1-day trips to L.A., going to museums, as he loves Art. Wife not interested, and? She won't allow him to go without her!
My cousin is snowbirding it in western AZ this winter, and I've offered to pay their RT fares to L.A. from Vegas for a 2 day venture, since neither has ever been there. He'd love to go with, but the wife is not interested, and she's the boss! So as not to create friction, he's not going.
Having read a bio of Michelle Obama, Barrack was so smitten with her, he called her The Boss from the beginning of their marriage. "No, your smoking days are over!" "Yes, Boss!"
I learned very late on, that my Father never wanted children (my mother had 3, which explains why he never had much time for us, can't blame him!) and he wanted to move far away from family to Colorado, and she wanted to remain close to family. And? Who won that battle?
When I put my house up for sale, a couple came to look at it, the husband went wild with job at seeing my work bench and storage area in my garage, saying "Perfect!" The wife grimaced, and the agent told me, privately: You should know, it's the woman who makes these decisions! House not sold!
What's your take on this "mystery"?
It's been said, true love is wanting the other to be as happy as possible, and?
1 day, seriously? That's trivial. The couples I know give each other leeway to do what they want. Hubby wants to go hiking and camping with his buds? Fine. Why not? Wife has international conferences to attend, or gets a sabbatical for a semester of research abroad? Go for it! They trade off taking care of the kids, in those cases. My uncle had an annual fishing trip to Alaska he'd go on for 2 weeks each year. Great! Who would deny him that, being the breadwinner, and all. Don't people want their spouses to be happy?
So, if a man raises his voice, it’s the woman’s fault? And everybody just blindly follows the woman? And men value sex more than their own self-respect?
Dallasgoldrush:
“The second reason is due to general behavioral patterns between men and women. Typically women are inclined to have more visibly emotional reactions to things. Men are emotional as well, but their surface behavior more often ranges from practical to aggressive. The result of this is, if and when any serious disagreements ever arise, women are almost always able to publicly frame the situation in a way that makes the man the bad guy.
An example would be when a couple has a private disagreement and the guy reacts to it by publicly raising his voice towards his spouse. It's a bad look. Especially when her reaction is something that subtly pulls at people's heartstrings, like a quiet but sustained whispering campaign where she makes all of her friends and family aware of the ways the guy is not meeting her needs. As a pattern, and perhaps sometimes without even realizing it, women are sophisticated enough to build legions of followers (including the law) to support them in disagreements with their husbands -- even when none of those followers have the slightest clue what initiated the disagreement or who really carries the greater weight of the blame, so to speak.”
So, if a man raises his voice, it’s the woman’s fault? And everybody just blindly follows the woman? And men value sex more than their own self-respect?
Dallasgoldrush:
“The second reason is due to general behavioral patterns between men and women. Typically women are inclined to have more visibly emotional reactions to things. Men are emotional as well, but their surface behavior more often ranges from practical to aggressive. The result of this is, if and when any serious disagreements ever arise, women are almost always able to publicly frame the situation in a way that makes the man the bad guy.
An example would be when a couple has a private disagreement and the guy reacts to it by publicly raising his voice towards his spouse. It's a bad look. Especially when her reaction is something that subtly pulls at people's heartstrings, like a quiet but sustained whispering campaign where she makes all of her friends and family aware of the ways the guy is not meeting her needs. As a pattern, and perhaps sometimes without even realizing it, women are sophisticated enough to build legions of followers (including the law) to support them in disagreements with their husbands -- even when none of those followers have the slightest clue what initiated the disagreement or who really carries the greater weight of the blame, so to speak.”
He's not saying it's right, he's just stating the public perception of what happens.
So, if a man raises his voice, it’s the woman’s fault?
Where did I say that?
If a man raising his voice is the only thing outsiders witness, many of them will automatically assign blame to him without understanding what led up to it. Sure the woman may be at fault. The man may be at fault as well. The point is no one knows, but many people will develop harsh opinions towards the man based on his unsophisticated outward reaction. If you have not at any point in your life witnessed someone being pre-judged harshly because of their poor outward reaction to a situation, then you're living in a different world than the one I live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusano
And everybody just blindly follows the woman?
Not everyone, but yes many people would. What's so controversial about my stating an observation of many people's tendencies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusano
And men value sex more than their own self-respect?
Again not all of them, but many of them yes. You've never in your life seen a man do something undignified or out-of-character for sex? Never?! Fine, keep those blinders on, but I'm talking about the world as it is rather than as I would ideally like it to be.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
, and my bet is that these men are using the "wife escape" clause as to not offend the OP.
