Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Vengeance is mine," sayth the Lord. This is for the very good reason that it prevents personal feuds from getting started and lasting through the generations. This is why the Ax wielding executioner is always masked.
I was on a grand jury once upon a time and a child rape case was brought for our consideration. The step father had been having sex for several years with two girls under 13 when the case was brought up. The girls testified to us of the circumstances and events. We inedited the guy for many counts of sex abuse but the crime was never tried because the mother convinced both girls not to testify against their step father. Annoying.
If you look at the timeline, the guy raped this gal, got caught and did his 10 years in jail. Very shortly after his release he kidnapped the gal and kept her prisoner for a number of years.
I think that in the first case he should not have been released. A few individuals can harm society in a disproportionate fashion by committing repeat acts. This is where psych evaluations, dna evidence etc. can all come together. Fortunately with dna evidence they can now catch the guy once and tie him to other crimes they've gathered evidence from.
"Vengeance is mine," sayth the Lord. This is for the very good reason that it prevents personal feuds from getting started and lasting through the generations. This is why the Ax wielding executioner is always masked.
I was on a grand jury once upon a time and a child rape case was brought for our consideration. The step father had been having sex for several years with two girls under 13 when the case was brought up. The girls testified to us of the circumstances and events. We inedited the guy for many counts of sex abuse but the crime was never tried because the mother convinced both girls not to testify against their step father. Annoying.
Ouch. Some of these guys are pro's at finding messed up women they can control and then mess with their kids etc. Just like some pick jobs that allow them access\trust etc.
I'm confused here.....really I am. Those of us who say, "These folks are a true menace to society. They are predators who can not be let loose without members of the general public being in danger. We're sick of feeding them, housing them and living in fear. They should be executed so they can't hurt anyone else.", are barbaric? Yet, those who say, "Those people are not able to be trusted. They are likely to reoffend, so let them stay in prisons. We will feed them, house them and let them be sexually assaulted and live in fear for the rest of their lives by other people who are likely to reoffend. After all, we're feeding and housing them, too.", are sensible people? They think they're humane thinkers? OMG! Are you kidding me? There are bleeding hearts who think the perpetrators' families are better off with their criminal relatives being let loose to reoffend, than put to death. Why, so they can re-live the humiliation and be shunned over and over again by the community? What happens to those poor families when that happens? Do you really think that many of those criminals' families wouldn't rather they be dead than put them through that again? How very sad it is that so many people can't look at things from every angle.
On a personal note.....if it were me whose family member was in jail for a heinous crime....I'd rather they be put to death so that I could start my life over with, so that I could have some closure. Every time it came out in the news, there was a new trial, someone else came forward, etc., the hell would start again for me. I would feel betrayed all over again, because once again, I had allowed myself to believe them, believe what they were saying to me about their innocence...only to wonder again why they would lie to me, wonder IF they were lying to me. I just know that the nightmare never ends for those criminals' families. What about the victims of these monsters? How do you think THEY feel, wondering if they're going to come back after them because they're getting another trial....up for parole, etc.? My heart aches just thinking about it.
2. "Proof" is relative. Some 15 year old girl with a grudge against her stepdad isn't proof. Even DNA evidence isn't one hundred percent accurate.
Would you be willing to risk the lives of a few innocents to ensure the guilty are killed?
No, I would not be willing to kill a few innocents.
However, while proof is relative, in certain cases it's irrefutable.
ie) Green River Killer murdered like 50-60 women and they had DNA from lots of them. There was other physical evidence and when they finally caught him they presented him with the option.
a) Death penalty.
b) Life no parole, complete confession and help in closing the cases.
I liked that approach because it cleared up all those old cases, helping the families and he never will get out. Without the DP on the books, there was no reason for the guy to plead guilty and help close the cases.
Ummmmm that would be a no, which is why I said "proven innocent".
Thank you for clarifying. I really wasn't just looking for a "gotcha moment", btw.
Now, considering the people who have been found inncoent of molestation and released, their lives still ruined, because some teenage girl wanted revenge or to get her stepdad out of her life, or due to mishandled evidence, or due to mis-intirprited DNA identification, or do to some other innocent physical contact that put a person's DNA on a child (like a sneeze or some other hypothetical), or due to a thousand other variatables...
Do you really think someone just MIGHT be innocent who has been found guilty? All that stands between a convicted murderer and the death sentance is to establish a "reasonable doubt", which would commute the setnance to life imprisonment. All that stands between life or death of a convict is whether his lawyer is better than the DA's lawyer and can instill that "reasonable doubt" or not.
Most rational people, especially parents like myself (times two since I'm a grandfather), find the molestation of a child to be the epitomie of evil, it simply harms a child on so many levels that it makes it an unthinkable crime in the rational mind. Jurists, who are normal people and not legal professionals, will also tend to be highly biased towards any person accused of this reprehensible behavior.
All it takes is for an innocent person to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, and not be able to afford a really good lawyer, for them to be put to death.
Also, the death penalty is simple retribution, revenge, it is not justice.
IMHO, justice would be to stretch the punishment out for as long as humanly possible.
No, I would not be willing to kill a few innocents.
However, while proof is relative, in certain cases it's irrefutable.
ie) Green River Killer murdered like 50-60 women and they had DNA from lots of them. There was other physical evidence and when they finally caught him they presented him with the option.
a) Death penalty.
b) Life no parole, complete confession and help in closing the cases.
I liked that approach because it cleared up all those old cases, helping the families and he never will get out. Without the DP on the books, there was no reason for the guy to plead guilty and help close the cases.
Even in such a clear case, I would not advocate the death sentance, but I would advocate a life sentance in a super-max style prison.
1. Much of the support for the death penalty, I've noticed, stem from two basic principles. Either "revenge" (and not justice), or the prisoner "getting an express ride to be judged by God". A system of justice should not be based on either.
2. IMHO, punishment for a crime IS justice, and the current prison system can hardly be called proper punishment, and barely an inconvinience.
3. Death is no punishment, it's over too quickly. It is simple revenge.
4. Super-max style prisons ARE a punishment, IMHO, and would also serve better as a deterent to crimes as well. Human beings are communual animals, such isolation would produce a near insanity, or even a full blown mental breakdown, for a lifer.
5. Even in today's flawed idea of "rehabilitation", isolation is used as a means of punishment, and behavioral adjustment, for hardened convicts within the prison system. Eliminate the middle-man, I say, and go right to isolation.
Thank you for clarifying. I really wasn't just looking for a "gotcha moment", btw.
Now, considering the people who have been found inncoent of molestation and released, their lives still ruined, because some teenage girl wanted revenge or to get her stepdad out of her life, or due to mishandled evidence, or due to mis-intirprited DNA identification, or do to some other innocent physical contact that put a person's DNA on a child (like a sneeze or some other hypothetical), or due to a thousand other variatables...
Do you really think someone just MIGHT be innocent who has been found guilty? All that stands between a convicted murderer and the death sentance is to establish a "reasonable doubt", which would commute the setnance to life imprisonment. All that stands between life or death of a convict is whether his lawyer is better than the DA's lawyer and can instill that "reasonable doubt" or not.
Most rational people, especially parents like myself (times two since I'm a grandfather), find the molestation of a child to be the epitomie of evil, it simply harms a child on so many levels that it makes it an unthinkable crime in the rational mind. Jurists, who are normal people and not legal professionals, will also tend to be highly biased towards any person accused of this reprehensible behavior.
All it takes is for an innocent person to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, and not be able to afford a really good lawyer, for them to be put to death.
Also, the death penalty is simple retribution, revenge, it is not justice.
IMHO, justice would be to stretch the punishment out for as long as humanly possible.
Ahhhhhhh at the expense of taxpayer dollars? By keeping truly guilty criminals alive, feeding them, housing them, building more prisons for them, just so their "punishment can be stretched out for as long as possible", aren't we punishing innocent people as well? Isn't this holding working families, who had nothing to do with the crime, have no relationship with the criminal at all, responsible for supporting these criminals. I don't know about the average working family, but THIS average working family has a hard enough time feeding, clothing, and housing our OWN brood, much LESS getting them medical and dental coverage. (Addition) Something that I failed to omit...(unbelievably so), is healthcare for these inmates. I have several friends who work at a local correction facility. They are in the healthcare field. Many times, these friends have shared their disgust and horror at the amount of medical care these inmates are intitled to. They (friends) pass out thousands of dollars of meds, PER med pass to these individuals. They have an on-site physician and fully staffed "clinic". These people get free dental help as well as psychologists at their beck and call. Most of the inmates at this specific institution are lifers. WE the taxpayers are paying dearly, out of our shallow pocketbooks, to simply keep these monsters well taken care of, so that they can live out their "punishments" for as long as possible.
We don't mind paying taxes to help out working families who have fallen upon hardships due to loss of jobs or illness, but feeding, housing, clothing, and providing medical care for people who will NEVER contribute to society, whose life situations (criminal activity, conviction and imprisonment) are a direct result of their evil, predatory, sick, corrupt lifestyles is an entirely different story!
To be honest, I've had a sibling who was incarcerated for an extended period of time....managed to father 5 children, ALL of whom were raised by "the system". When he was released from prison he never once supported his family, instead he chose to spend his earnings on alcohol and drugs.....for 40 years, working mainly under the table, stealing, conning people, until his lifestyle finally killed him. He was one of the brothers who molested me as a child (me, the child...he had a pregnant wife!). The man terrified me into keeping it a secret. It came out later that he had molested 3 of his 5 children, whom he was not supporting, (simply showed up, pretending to want to be a part of their lives and living off of the state help his ex-wife was getting). Not once, was that man imprisoned on any of the molestation charges....only theft and repeated bad check charges. Think about it.....for every 1 person convicted on sex crime charges, IMHO, there are 50 who are walking the street unconvicted. There have been too many people I've talked to about these things, too many verifications, for me to think otherwise. When people see there are basically no consequences for their actions, crime spreads like the plague. I, too, am a grandparent....2x....I fear to think of what is going to be awaiting them in this world if something doesn't turn around.
Last edited by beachmel; 09-01-2009 at 01:13 PM..
Reason: After thought!
Ahhhhhhh at the expense of taxpayer dollars? By keeping truly guilty criminals alive, feeding them, housing them, building more prisons for them, just so their "punishment can be stretched out for as long as possible", aren't we punishing innocent people as well? Isn't this holding working families, who had nothing to do with the crime, have no relationship with the criminal at all, responsible for supporting these criminals. I don't know about the average working family, but THIS average working family has a hard enough time feeding, clothing, and housing our OWN brood, much LESS getting them medical and dental coverage. (Addition) Something that I failed to omit...(unbelievably so), is healthcare for these inmates. I have several friends who work at a local correction facility. They are in the healthcare field. Many times, these friends have shared their disgust and horror at the amount of medical care these inmates are intitled to. They (friends) pass out thousands of dollars of meds, PER med pass to these individuals. They have an on-site physician and fully staffed "clinic". These people get free dental help as well as psychologists at their beck and call. Most of the inmates at this specific institution are lifers. WE the taxpayers are paying dearly, out of our shallow pocketbooks, to simply keep these monsters well taken care of, so that they can live out their "punishments" for as long as possible.
We don't mind paying taxes to help out working families who have fallen upon hardships due to loss of jobs or illness, but feeding, housing, clothing, and providing medical care for people who will NEVER contribute to society, whose life situations (criminal activity, conviction and imprisonment) are a direct result of their evil, predatory, sick, corrupt lifestyles is an entirely different story!
To be honest, I've had a sibling who was incarcerated for an extended period of time....managed to father 5 children, ALL of whom were raised by "the system". When he was released from prison he never once supported his family, instead he chose to spend his earnings on alcohol and drugs.....for 40 years, working mainly under the table, stealing, conning people, until his lifestyle finally killed him. He was one of the brothers who molested me as a child (me, the child...he had a pregnant wife!). The man terrified me into keeping it a secret. It came out later that he had molested 3 of his 5 children, whom he was not supporting, (simply showed up, pretending to want to be a part of their lives and living off of the state help his ex-wife was getting). Not once, was that man imprisoned on any of the molestation charges....only theft and repeated bad check charges. Think about it.....for every 1 person convicted on sex crime charges, IMHO, there are 50 who are walking the street unconvicted. There have been too many people I've talked to about these things, too many verifications, for me to think otherwise. When people see there are basically no consequences for their actions, crime spreads like the plague. I, too, am a grandparent....2x....I fear to think of what is going to be awaiting them in this world if something doesn't turn around.
How much do you think prison costs society right now in the present, flawed ideal of "rehabilitation"? The US has the single most inmates per capita in the world, and we spend billions a year JUST for prison costs, not including everything else from police wages to court costs.
That prison cost includes such amenities as televisions, basket balls, weights, etc.
Imagine, if you will, with the legalization of pot AND the reinstatement of the ideal of punishment which, IMHO, would seriously impact crime statistics and lower crime, thus resulting in lower numbers of inmates, thus resulting in lower costs for prisons in general.
Also...
Report of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice
“The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”
Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.
It is far cheaper to house a criminal for life, even under the current system, than it does to kill them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
