Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing? (dental, heart)

[tijlover]

In nature there's no birth control pills or abortions.

The 0-1-2 family system has swept the entire world, sans subSahara Africa, with top-heavy aging populations. A 2.3 fertility rate is desirable for any country.

Small wonder they're panicking in Italy, with their 1.3 fertility rate, and no excess population, like in other times. As well as Spain (1.3), Greece (1.3) or Japan (1.2) or Germany (1.4) and Mexico (2.0). If the U.S. had a low fertility rate like Japan or China or Italy, we'd be in total lockdown. Luckily, we still have some excess population to weather this storm, or not take it too seriously, thanks to the immigrants.

We live in a whole new age today, unlike the Black Plague of the past. And even with the Black Plague, one third of the population died, and for one generation, there was no lower class.

[Mikala43]

Originally Posted by bmexman

In the wild, in nature; the old, weak and sick are the first to die. The gene pool then gets strengthened.

We humans are no exception. Why are we messing with what we can't conquer?

So you are a completely unvaccinated human being? That would be messing with nature, and if you were too weak to fight off measles and polio, you should be allowed to die?

People who have heart attacks should not seek medical intervention? Heck, glasses? Why? You are weak, you should just survive best you can without seeing well.

[Dangerous-Boy]

Originally Posted by bmexman

In the wild, in nature; the old, weak and sick are the first to die. The gene pool then gets strengthened.

We humans are no exception. Why are we messing with what we can't conquer?

kill yourself then. you're breathing my air, eating my food, drinking my water, and using my internet bandwidth.

[Mikala43]

Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy

kill yourself then. you're breathing my air, eating my food, drinking my water, and using my internet bandwidth.

THAT was necessary. Plus, that stuff belongs to everyone.

[Arktikos]

Originally Posted by bmexman

In the wild, in nature; the old, weak and sick are the first to die. The gene pool then gets strengthened.

We humans are no exception. Why are we messing with what we can't conquer?

Yes, and it seems like we are in the "wild", though some don't see it that way. Certainly this virus is most lethal for the old, weak and sick. Whether we can conquer it is an open question.

But what do yo mean by "messing with"-as in trying to avoid?
Seems like that's the nature of all animals, to postpone death if possible.

[DaneThornberg]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Humans have attained flights of generosity and broadmindedness, far beyond that of animals; and they've also sunk to levels of cruelty and depravity, far below that of animals. I'm not sure how relevant would an animal-model be. Animals, as far as we know, have never fought religious-wars, or built concentration camps. Animals have never enslaved members of their own species as slaves. But then again, neither have animals created art, or made discoveries for discovery's sake.



I can't presume to speak for the poster whom you quoted, but speaking personally, I'm opposed to the idea of medicine-at-all-costs. Sometimes the struggle isn't worth it. Sometime it is better to go against our animal-nature (see response above) to voluntarily resign, whereas an animal would have kept on fighting. Sometimes the honorable thing to do, is for the patient to refuse treatment. And sometimes, perhaps, the honorable thing to do, is for "the system" to not pursue treatment.



Indeed. One of my favorite books, by Ernest Becker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

The central problem is that alone among animals, we can ponder the abstract question of our lives' finitude. For example, how much of the desire for money, is less about obtaining wherewithal for the buying of goods and services, and more about an escape from one's own finitude? Likewise in publishing scholarly works, or even the leaving of posts archived on an internet forum.

I'm always hesitant to respond to a scholarly post because I'm such a dummy, but Becker's ideas make me wonder if the whole of USA are mentally ill. It makes sense reading about the hero-systems we create for ourselves, much like the trendy 'woke' virtue signaling (see book quote below for definition). The people I work with are akin to corporate drones who don't really think or converse on such intellectual topics, so your post was especially refreshing and thought-provoking.

Back up on topic, my two aging parents will probably live forever, as medicine and technology continue to progress. They're keeping people alive well-past their quality of life. As a result, the sick parent can barely function yet is kept alive for the other healthier one to care for during the remaining "golden years." It's SICK!

Maybe if anything good comes from this it may convince some of us spoiled Americans search for more in life than that Tesla I've had my eyes on. Or the joy I'll feel when I show people at work my new bracelet meant to save the oceans. (Virtue signaling). Right now on working from home and self-isolation, I know I'll appreciate every aspect of the next four-hour exquisite meal I plan to have after this blows over more than I have before. So after one week in lockdown mode, I'm already dreaming of things I once took for granted: to celebrate simple things with people I enjoy is priceless.

thank you for posting, I hope to read more of your thoughts.



Excerp from The Denial of Death and quote from Wikipedia: humanity's traditional "hero-systems", such as religion, are no longer convincing in the age of reason. However, he argued the loss of religion leaves humanity with impoverished resources for necessary illusions. Science attempts to serve as an immortality project, something that Becker believes it can never do because it is unable to provide agreeable, absolute meanings to human life. The book states that we need new convincing "illusions" that enable us to feel heroic in ways that are agreeable.[5] Becker, however, does not provide any definitive answer, mainly because he believes that there is no perfect solution. Instead, he hopes that gradual realization of humanity's innate motivations, namely death, can help to bring about a better world.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by Mikala43

So you are a completely unvaccinated human being? That would be messing with nature, and if you were too weak to fight off measles and polio, you should be allowed to die?

Other than silly hyperbole, there’s no legitimate argument to favor a Hobbesian state-of-nature. The whole point of having a brain and of being intelligent, is to interact with our environment in manner beyond mere instinct or temporary expediency. With “mess with nature” to live better lives, and hopefully to leave behind a better place, than that which we found when we started.

But it’s just as silly to suppose that “messing with nature” is foolproof, or guaranteed to work. In the present case, I think, the argument is that “messing with nature” is both of limited efficacy and results in all sorts of harms to our economic vitality and way of life.

Originally Posted by DaneThornberg

... Becker's ideas make me wonder if the whole of USA are mentally ill.

Becker would probably reply, that we’re all a bit mentally ill, the difference being of quantity and kind. A “successful” life would be one where this mental illness is channeled in productive ways, and checked by countervailing illnesses. Thus his point about the artist pouring himself into the art, as a crutch to fend off dread of death. And by “countervailing illnesses” I mean for example the fear vs. greed dynamic in the stock market. Neither is a particularly wholesome emotion, and both bespeak some excess, some nasty impulse. But if they balance, the market is stable. If fear overwhelmingly dominates, like it presently does, we have chaos and suffering.

Originally Posted by DaneThornberg

my two aging parents will probably live forever, as medicine and technology continue to progress. They're keeping people alive well-past their quality of life. As a result, the sick parent can barely function yet is kept alive for the other healthier one to care for during the remaining "golden years." It's SICK!

And this is the legitimate side of the otherwise vapid “Hey, let’s solve our fiscal-crisis by offing all of the geezers” argument. It isn’t life itself, by whatever means necessary, that’s so hallowed and precious; it is quality of life… self-determination and self-actualization.

Originally Posted by DaneThornberg

Maybe if anything good comes from this it may convince some of us spoiled Americans search for more in life than that Tesla I've had my eyes on.

The Tesla sounds a silly, considering that it’s expensive, doesn’t fill all that pressing of a need, and is a physical product made by other people, that we buy with money. It checks all of the boxes for something that we crave but also view with disgust and self-contempt, for it feels like a compensation for some gap, a surrogate for something deeper that ought to be there, but isn’t. But I’m not convinced that a monkish renunciation of the Tesla-impulse is all that healthy either. Not to put words into Becker’s mouth, but the monk has his own Tesla… his relationship with his deity, or his meditative practices, or his very desire to disavow all desire. His impulses are “higher” because his hero-project is personal (he does it himself, rather than buying a mass-produced object), but the outcome is the same.

[MaryleeII]

I've had both knees, both hips, and both ankles replaced. Guess I should have chosen to crawl around like a slug?

[Arktikos]

Originally Posted by MaryleeII

I've had both knees, both hips, and both ankles replaced. Guess I should have chosen to crawl around like a slug?

That's "going pretty hard against nature" alright. I've never heard of ankle replacements.

How do you account for this massive waist down joint deterioration?

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by bmexman

In the wild, in nature; the old, weak and sick are the first to die. The gene pool then gets strengthened.

We humans are no exception. Why are we messing with what we can't conquer?

I think we are overreacting and as regulars on here know I am very much against heroic measures at end-of-life. But I think this is going to far; many people get subclinical Covid and most that have it do recover to useful lives. I think you're taking Darwinism too far, as did socialists and dictators in the 1930s.