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thank you for your response--in my christian ed classes i do not focus on the acceptance or not of the jews of jesus time(only to say he was not a religious leader in the jewish religion of his time)--i only want to honor the religion that he practiced and what it was then and now--both similarities and difference--and do not want to offend those practicing judaism now as some of my students have families that are in both religions
thank you for your links
in florida my long time home there was a beginning of a messianic jewish sect --any info if such a sect exsists in the north where i am now living?
Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus are not Jewish and they have an agenda which is to bring into their fold Jewish people. They are an offensive group.
the noahide laws are for gentiles (well jews are supposed to keep them too in addition to the rest of torah) . In traditional Judaism a born jew who ceases to observe Jewish law is a sinner (though still a Jew) not a noahide.
Perhaps I misread or misunderstood what flip had said in the past. What would happen to an observant Jew who then leaves his Judaism, when the judgment for the World to Come arrives?
Perhaps I misread or misunderstood what flip had said in the past. What would happen to an observant Jew who then leaves his Judaism, when the judgment for the World to Come arrives?
Flip may have an answer. My form of J (and i venture, most) simply doesnt spend that much time focused on judgement in the world to come. Its just not a central issue.
It does say in the talmud that all jews have a place in the world to come. It ALSO goes on to say (elsewhere) that a Jew who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead has NO place in the world to come. Its not always clear when the rabbis of the talmud are speaking rhetorically.
The jewish answer - Look, G-d himself commanded you to be observant. Why ask about the details of the world to come, just OBSERVE already.
oh, and rambam in the close to authoritative as anything else 13 principles of faith says we must all believe in reward and punishment for sins. I daresay most non O, and more than a few O jews, do not take that super literally. And many of those who do, do not necessarily think its man's job to get too much into the details.
Flip may have an answer. My form of J (and i venture, most) simply doesnt spend that much time focused on judgement in the world to come. Its just not a central issue.
It does say in the talmud that all jews have a place in the world to come. It ALSO goes on to say (elsewhere) that a Jew who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead has NO place in the world to come. Its not always clear when the rabbis of the talmud are speaking rhetorically.
The jewish answer - Look, G-d himself commanded you to be observant. Why ask about the details of the world to come, just OBSERVE already.
Fair enough. I don't particularly like the Messianic Jews (what they are doing seems smarmy to me for some reason) but would like to hear Flip's answer. Thanks for yours though!
some jews have no involvement with Judaism. They are still considered Jews, for reasons that have been explained ad nauseum (to the point of digestive problems). The Torah is central to all forms of Judaism however. It is central to Reform and to Orthodox Judaism, though in different ways. To the extent that there are many Reform jews to whom torah is not central to their lives, thats only because their (REFORM) Judaism not that central to their lives.
I understand one can be Jewish and have no involvement with torah. When I read "The Torah is central for us", especially by Reform Jews, it gives the impression, false In My Opinion, that Jews of all denominations are relatively equally central. Because this is a thread for questions, not debate, I'll leave it at that.
As far as you know...How similar or different are the Torah and The Old Testament of the Christian Bible?
There are the many differences between the Christian version of the Jewish Bible and the Jewish version of the Jewish Bible:
According to Rabbi Marc Gellman of G-d Squad fame, "One of the most important things to understand when quoting the Bible (the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Testament) is that it was not written in English. This means you're not only reading a translation from Hebrew or Greek, but you're also often reading an interpretation masquerading as a translation."
As an example of this "interpretation masquerading as a translation", further quoting Rabbi Gellman, "The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and the text used by Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century), famously translates the Hebrew verse 'and behold a young woman shall give birth' as, 'and behold a virgin shall give birth.' The Hebrew word for virgin is betula, but the word used in Isaiah 7 is alma, which just means a young woman. Obviously, if there was a verse in the Hebrew Bible predicting that a virgin would give birth, this would indeed be a stunning prediction and proof text of Jesus' virgin birth. Unfortunately, for Christians who want this to be the verse, it is not the verse."
Perhaps I misread or misunderstood what flip had said in the past. What would happen to an observant Jew who then leaves his Judaism, when the judgment for the World to Come arrives?
Orthodox Jews focus a great deal on Olam Haba (the world to come). We make all decisions, every day, with this context in the back of our mind. I explained earlier that there are three options when you die:
1. You go straight to Olam Haba (rare, and reserved for only the greatest of sages)
2. You go to Gehinnon, where you "repair" your soul for anywhere from 1 day to 11 months, then on to Olam Haba
3. You are judged as not ready, and your soul is "recycled" into a new body, with no memory of the previous life, giving you another chance to do well enough to eventually make it to Olam Haba.
I can't tell you i know for sure what happens to the Jew who commits apostocy. My guess is option three above. What I didn't mention above, though, is there is an option 4, reserved for the worst of evil people on the planet, which is a total discarding of the soul. No Olam Haba, no gehinnon and no reincarnation. Just nothingness. We assume Hitler met this fate. I personally suspect Akmedinejab and Jimmy Carter will meet similar fates, although there is still time for both to repent.
Since you mentioned the Sabbath, what does keeping the Sabbath entail for you personally? What sort of things do you do with yourself on a typical Sabbath? I've heard that some people take it to the point of not even flipping light switches, while others are more relaxed about it. I'm just curious where you stand with it.
Stavemaster, in case you're still reading, I have not forgotten this request. But with Shabbos approaching in the next few hours, I think I'm more likely to tackle this question after Shabbos concludes.
Orthodox Jews focus a great deal on Olam Haba (the world to come). We make all decisions, every day, with this context in the back of our mind. I explained earlier that there are three options when you die:
1. You go straight to Olam Haba (rare, and reserved for only the greatest of sages)
2. You go to Gehinnon, where you "repair" your soul for anywhere from 1 day to 11 months, then on to Olam Haba
3. You are judged as not ready, and your soul is "recycled" into a new body, with no memory of the previous life, giving you another chance to do well enough to eventually make it to Olam Haba.
I can't tell you i know for sure what happens to the Jew who commits apostocy. My guess is option three above. What I didn't mention above, though, is there is an option 4, reserved for the worst of evil people on the planet, which is a total discarding of the soul. No Olam Haba, no gehinnon and no reincarnation. Just nothingness. We assume Hitler met this fate. I personally suspect Akmedinejab and Jimmy Carter will meet similar fates, although there is still time for both to repent.
So by enticing Jews away from Judaism, the Messianic Jews are particularly heinous - the Jews that fall victim believe they are still Jewish, but in fact have commuted apostasy. Is that generally how you describe what the Messianic Jewish movement is doing?
Moderator cut: off topic
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-31-2011 at 12:41 PM..
So by enticing Jews away from Judaism, the Messianic Jews are particularly heinous - the Jews that fall victim believe they are still Jewish, but in fact have commuted apostasy. Is that generally how you describe what the Messianic Jewish movement is doing?
And this is my youth speaking, but why would Jimmy Carter be included with the likes of Hitler for complete annihilation?
Yes, the messianic Jewish movement was created with the sole purpose of proslytizing - and specifically to Jews. Mainstream proslytizing to Jews rarely works (try convincing me, Walter, BBD and jazzymom to drop our faith). So these Chrstians created this "movement" to trick Jews were they had been unable to convince them previously. Just evil.
Moderator cut: orphaned response
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-31-2011 at 12:42 PM..
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