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I know I have already posted here and apologize in advance for yet another message, but I find it difficult to believe that people are not able to understand that the Cambodians came here under different circumstances than African Americans and these divergent circumstances would certainly affect each race's ability to assimilate. The Cambodians were not taken away from their homeleand against their will and then forced into slavery when they arrived here where they would remain slaves for several generations. The Cambodians were never told that they aren't really people, but they are merely the property of white people. The Cambodians were never subjected to "Jim Crow" laws that segregated all races from them in a variety of humiliating circumstances, such as banning interracial marriage, banning them from using certain drinking fountains or staying in certain hotels. As late as the early '70's I recall seeing a "Whites only" sign above a drinking fountain in downtown Pittsburgh, PA.
I think racism sucks too but given that there were hundreds of years of institutional discrimination against Blacks, I don't find it that surprising that once the laws are removed that actually REQUIRED everyone to discriminate against them, that some remnants of the old dispicable, ignorant beliefs remian embedded in the hearts and minds of many people. I've read a lot of posts in different forums from different states and rarely do I see a post asking if a "Polish" or "Cambodian" person can live in an area without being subjected to hatred or not being fully welcomed there. However, I have seen a lot of posts where African American people ask the same question and there are very few responses and those that do respond even exhibit racism in the response. Thankfully, I haven't seen that here in LA against Blacks.
Maybe after enslaving an entire race of people for many generations and depriving them of their basic humanity, it takes a little time for them to get back on their feet and believe in themselves again and maybe it takes some time for those who treated them so badly to forgive themselves for being such inhumane jerks for so long. I think it is amazing that so many African Americans are doing so well. Many of the suburbs outside Atlanta are filled with middle class African American families. I'm not Republican but every time I see Ms. Rice on television I am amazed and very proud to see how much she was able to accomplish, in spite of the fact that she grew up under segregation and the old Jim Crow laws.
I'm not white nor black. I've been a victim of racism growing up in OC at the hands of mostly whites.
Yet I find, as a group, whites to be most open-minded about race issues than any other group, mine included.
I have a slacking black co-worker, who I get along with, claim racism from our employer when his performance issues came about. Now he is "untouchable" (un-fire-able). I also have another former co-worker, a Latin, fired for voter fraud during the CA recall elections, attempting to get "undocumented" to vote. I also had a black tenant, who trashed my place before bailing out to Las Vegas.
These are only examples that I know are not indicative as a whole but are my direct personal experiences. I can also point to many more things my Asian brethren do that perpetuate our own stereotypes to my dismay. I see it from all sides living in the Pot that is Metro LA and I'm guilty too from time to time.
Yet, this country, from the institution to its people, at this day and age, is not perfect but is the most fair to all.
I know I have already posted here and apologize in advance for yet another message, but I find it difficult to believe that people are not able to understand that the Cambodians came here under different circumstances than African Americans and these divergent circumstances would certainly affect each race's ability to assimilate. The Cambodians were not taken away from their homeleand against their will and then forced into slavery when they arrived here where they would remain slaves for several generations. The Cambodians were never told that they aren't really people, but they are merely the property of white people. The Cambodians were never subjected to "Jim Crow" laws that segregated all races from them in a variety of humiliating circumstances, such as banning interracial marriage, banning them from using certain drinking fountains or staying in certain hotels. As late as the early '70's I recall seeing a "Whites only" sign above a drinking fountain in downtown Pittsburgh, PA.
The Cambodians came in the '70s and after, when racism was already publically unacceptable. However, in 19th and early 20th century California, Asians were subject to segregation, open disparagement, and heavy discrimination quite similar to that of blacks in the South at time - including many of the same stereotypes, and even lynchings by "vigilante" groups comparable to the US KKK. California's anti-miscegenation laws (repealed in 1948) were intended to be used against Asians, and there were restrictive covenants forbidding Asians to live in many areas. Being Chinese in 1900 California wasn't that different from being black in 1900 Mississippi. All of this culminated in the internment of Japanese Americans during WW2 (a practice supported by almost all Pacific Coast politicians of both parties).
However, because most Asian-Americans today did not have ancestors who lived in the US in the early 20th century, there is no feeling of resentment or hatred. If Caribbean and African immigrants and their descendants outnumbered the descendants of US slaves, a similar phenomena would be at work.
Personally, I have had more ugly incidents with African Americans than all other ethnic groups in LA combined and then some. However, I recognize that about 20% of the African American population are the people who cause the problems (and the other 80% suffers from the actions of this 20% more than other races and ethnicities do), and I have never had a problem with the African Americans in my neighborhood and get along fine with them. It's the "ghetto" element which ruins things for the rest of the African American population.
What an interesting thread. As a black woman, I can relate to the original poster. I am an attorney with an large international law firm, I went to good schools, am articulate, and bright -- however, I feel like I'm constantly overlooked for the big, juicy cases at my firm. Although people say they don't see your race, and they treat you as a professional, you know they definitely see that you are black, and if nothing else, they at first assume you are less capable.
Usually, one of the first things people note about me is that "I am articulate." I always find it so offensive, because the statement usually comes from a position of surprise. It's like they're expecting that I won't be able to speak proper English, and when I am, they are surprised and feel the need to comment on it (Just as how everyone is so "impressed" with Sen. Obama's ability to speak articulately-- it's one of the most common things mentioned about him). Come on people, it's 2007 -- not all black people live in ghettos and, speak poorly, and are uneducated.
On the subject of speaking poorly, I actually don't think "ebonics" is something black americans need to give up, because it is the African American lingua franca. However, the key is that black americans must also be able to speak proper, mainstream, educated English to use when interacting with others not in our community. Unfortunately, because "ebonics" is associated with poverty, the ghetto, etc., it isn't recognized as its own dialect. i don't see ebonics as any different from the Carribbean patois, for example, or West African pidgin english, or carribean creole (with French in place of English). However, "ebonics" should not replace proper English.
I'm black, but I am also an immigrant, so I am somewhat privy to how non- black Americans see American blacks. And I have to say, the number one comment I hear over and again is that black Americans have a false sense of entitlement and fail to see the limitless opportunities that abound here. No matter how racist the United States is, there are more opportunities here for a person of any race than there are in just about any other country in the world (Canada would be the exception, if it's economy was as big as the United State's). Name another country, in the western hemisphere where a black woman would hold a position as high as Condeleeza Rice. I've lived in England, and while the racisim there is not overt, there is definitely a glass ceiling for blacks.
African Americans as a community need to begin to tackle the ails of their community -- devaluation of eduction and exaltation of the gang, street, culture. Did anyone catch Oprah's comments for why she chose to open her school in South Africa and not in black communities in the U.S.? She stated something to the effect of African American children not valuing education and having no desire to excel academically.
Unfortunately, when I first came to the United States, my relatives who were already here, told me not interact with black Americans because "they are violent," or "they don't go to school" or "they are into gangs." It's a false perception, beause in the professional world I meet high achieving blacks all the time. Only us blacks can change this negative perception about our race and communities --for the upliftment of our race, communities etc., and not necesarily so that other races can think differently about us as a people (let's face it, no matter how educated you become as a black person, there will always be some who think you are not much better than an ape-- you can't burden yourself with trying to change these people).
What an interesting thread. As a black woman, I can relate to the original poster. I am an attorney with an large international law firm, I went to good schools, am articulate, and bright -- however, I feel like I'm constantly overlooked for the big, juicy cases at my firm. Although people say they don't see your race, and they treat you as a professional, you know they definitely see that you are black, and if nothing else, they at first assume you are less capable.
Usually, one of the first things people note about me is that "I am articulate." I always find it so offensive, because the statement usually comes from a position of surprise. It's like they're expecting that I won't be able to speak proper English, and when I am, they are surprised and feel the need to comment on it (Just as how everyone is so "impressed" with Sen. Obama's ability to speak articulately-- it's one of the most common things mentioned about him). Come on people, it's 2007 -- not all black people live in ghettos and, speak poorly, and are uneducated.
On the subject of speaking poorly, I actually don't think "ebonics" is something black americans need to give up, because it is the African American lingua franca. However, the key is that black americans must also be able to speak proper, mainstream, educated English to use when interacting with others not in our community. Unfortunately, because "ebonics" is associated with poverty, the ghetto, etc., it isn't recognized as its own dialect. i don't see ebonics as any different from the Carribbean patois, for example, or West African pidgin english, or carribean creole (with French in place of English). However, "ebonics" should not replace proper English.
I'm black, but I am also an immigrant, so I am somewhat privy to how non- black Americans see American blacks. And I have to say, the number one comment I hear over and again is that black Americans have a false sense of entitlement and fail to see the limitless opportunities that abound here. No matter how racist the United States is, there are more opportunities here for a person of any race than there are in just about any other country in the world (Canada would be the exception, if it's economy was as big as the United State's). Name another country, in the western hemisphere where a black woman would hold a position as high as Condeleeza Rice. I've lived in England, and while the racisim there is not overt, there is definitely a glass ceiling for blacks.
African Americans as a community need to begin to tackle the ails of their community -- devaluation of eduction and exaltation of the gang, street, culture. Did anyone catch Oprah's comments for why she chose to open her school in South Africa and not in black communities in the U.S.? She stated something to the effect of African American children not valuing education and having no desire to excel academically.
Unfortunately, when I first came to the United States, my relatives who were already here, told me not interact with black Americans because "they are violent," or "they don't go to school" or "they are into gangs." It's a false perception, beause in the professional world I meet high achieving blacks all the time. Only us blacks can change this negative perception about our race and communities --for the upliftment of our race, communities etc., and not necesarily so that other races can think differently about us as a people (let's face it, no matter how educated you become as a black person, there will always be some who think you are not much better than an ape-- you can't burden yourself with trying to change these people).
Thank you Ananas,
Your post was very thought-provoking, and it has also reminded me of something. American Blacks and Blacks from other countries seem to be divided. Not only do we have other races coming to America and getting the impression that American Blacks are violent and ignorant, but we have our own race saying the same thing. It's like the American thing to do is shun American Blacks. But as you have said, no matter where you come from, how "articulate" and "well-spoken" you are, people will always see Black first and your talents and capabilities second. That was my whole point. It's frustrating to work so hard and achieve so much, and still have to prove yourself because you are physically more noticeable than any other race. There are so many hard-working, intelligent Black people in the world, but we are still looked upon as the exception rather than the rule.
This brings me to my next point. I have a theory on why African Americans have a sense of entitlement. For the troubles they suffered, American Indians were given their own plot of land, and the right to run their own governments . And people who are of tribal decent get money paid to them for being descendants. Japanese people were given reparations for being interred in camps during WWII. What did African Americans get for being slaves? Zip. Not even an official apology and acknowledgment that the slave trade was wrong. I think what bothers us is that everyone else who has been wronged by America got some sort of reparation, and we got nothing but affirmative action. And when we bring up slavery, we get a "get over it" sentiment thrown at us. I don't see anyone telling the Jews to stop talking about the Holocaust, or the Armenians to stop talking about the Genocide they suffered from the Turks. Can we just start with America saying, "We're sorry for what we've done to your people. Slavery was wrong"? Can we start there, at least? I guarantee you, an official apology for slavery and Jim Crow and other laws against Black people would ease a lot of pain and resentment from Black Americans. But that's just my opinion.
hi invisible-you wrote:
"Can we just start with America saying, "We're sorry for what we've done to your people. Slavery was wrong"? Can we start there, at least? I guarantee you, an official apology for slavery and Jim Crow and other laws against Black people would ease a lot of pain and resentment from Black Americans."
i was thinking the same thing...but i wonder if it will just bring out the hard-core racists even more...? still, i know it can work, given time; here's proof:
The UK is celebrating 200 years of abolition now. Check it out on the bbc. It's inspirational. (and one more reason why i love the UK):
...I don't see anyone telling the Jews to stop talking about the Holocaust, or the Armenians to stop talking about the Genocide they suffered from the Turks. ...[/quote]
I hear you, Invisible, but it's not a good idea to start comparing suffering amongst groups. All suffering and injustice is wrong, hurts and stifles people for generations. i used to say that nothing is worse than being enslaved----but being driven from your land by fire, rape, killings--for decades--never having a home, a way to make food, protect your family...perhaps that is just as bad. Let's not compare anymore. It's painful and will lead nowhere.
I'd wager most will agree that the universal culprit is greed. It still exists and therefore racism, sexism, regionalism, etc...are all pawns in its game.
I think it boils down to this: if some greedy people can prosper at the expense and suffering of another, it will be done--regardless of race, gender or creed.
BTW, people (esp the Turks) DO tell the Armenians to stop complaining...and they are not being treated well at all.
And unfortuantley when we, as women speak up against a sexist wrongdoing, we are often ridiculed or ignored, aren't we?
Aside from the Native Americans and African Americans, The US used the Irish immigrants as slave labour to build canals. They literally died digging; their families starved. Greed has no shame and no mercy--greed will find a way to stick it to you no matter how you look or where you come from. (e.g. The Brits once deemed the Irish an "inferior race". And they are practically siblings!)
And you know that plot of land given to the natives here, in australia, and so forth? It just ghetto-ized them...it may be better than nothing but many areas are practically a wasteland to a nomadic people. (not to mention many tribes were wiped out--thousands of distinct cultures are extinct.)
i'm happy that the native americans have their own government...and the casinos, too. They have invested wisely with their profits. Things are looking up now. And I think the US should address reparations for African Americans, too.
So in short, i say we all need to understand all forms of injustice and work for improving things--even if it's just on a personal level amongst our peers, acquaintances, and forum pals.
You are not alone, Invisible. Others' situation may not be identical to yours/your ancestors, but they are relative. I hope we all respect that and support each other.
Knowledge breeds strength and understanding. Thanks for listening. Peace.
I like the term "Glass Ceiling" Ananas. Very nice.
I'm with you Invisible and Mover007. A sincere apology would be nice. People may say, "you were not a slave" or "you weren't the one in the field why should you get reparations?".
Here's how slavery affects me. I have, for the last year, been trying to research my family history. Well, any african-american who has done this knows that you can only go as far to 1870. Which is the first Census blacks were counted as people. Before then it was only by age and gender. Please not, dear people, that many former slaves did not take the last names of their masters, some changed their names. Therefore making it even more difficult to track down the slave owner. Therefore the trail leads to a dead end.
Family history is important to me, I have been robbed of this and it makes me angry. I want the government to do something to make it right! Make it easier for african-americans to trace their ancestry by having all records pertaining to African americans in one central location and online. Also, white people who have old family records pertaining to slavery should have to forfeit that information, so that it is another resource for us.
I don't want to know what part of Africa my ancestors came from.
Africa is a beautiful country, but I am very happy I am not there with all their tribal problems.
The other thing that bothers me is when you have a successful black person, everyone wants to know "what's your story?". Meaning, what ghetto did you come from? Tell us your struggles. Were you in a gang? Single parent? Were your parents on welfare, did you even know your dad? Were you the first one in your family to go to college?
While those may be true for some, it is not true for all. People think just because you're black you had to come from hardship lane and their surprised to find out you didn't.
To all those who base their views of black people on a few bad situations:
STOP JUDGING US. Do you really have such limited interactions with black people that you have to judge the whole black race on a few people? I bet you don't do that with any other race. Maybe you need to learn how to judge people on their character and/or how they carry themselves not their skin color. Get a clue!
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Acknowledging history to combat racism
