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Old 01-27-2008, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,394 posts, read 4,085,172 times
Reputation: 1411

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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
That's the current condition, not a forecast.

 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,062,617 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAisGreat View Post
But when I saw that McCain started out way ahead there, and lost all his ground to Romney basically because McCain told MI, the manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, it's time to move on and do something else to save your economy like the rest of the United States has more or less figured out...Then they say that McCain lost because he said that, and the bobblehead Romney won, mainly because he spoonfed the people that he would bring all the jobs back...It was like just one more, of many, nails in the coffin called MI.
You think Romney was full of it and that McCain speaks the truth? McCain speaks the truth for what will happen if we continue to have business-as-usual in Washington.

So, what kinds of jobs do you think Michigan (or any state) will be able to get? Just what should Michiganders and Americans retrain and reeducate for?

IT jobs? Those were sent to India. Computer programming? Those were sent to India. Sadly, a great many knowledge-based jobs can be offshored too. Many knowledge-based college-education-requiring jobs can be offshored. Everything from financial analysis to patent law, interpreting radiological scans, animation, architecture and engineering, to name a few. In the meantime, a great many domestic jobs are being filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas, displacing Americans, and science as a viable career field with a high probability of success has been dead for decades.

If we aren't going to do something to protect ourselves from global labor arbitrage, then what is our nation to do? That's why I'm glad that McCain lost. I doubt Romney understands all of this or would do much better, but it doesn't bother me that McCain lost. At some point this nation will have to address the economic force of global labor arbitrage lest we become an overpopulated impoverished third world country, just like the nations we're trying to merge our economy with now.

The job market might be better in other states, but what kinds of jobs are people finding? The U.S. economy is transforming itself into a low-wage service-based economy. According to the BLS employment stats, we have jobs for bartenders and waitresses but there are few new white collar openings in knowledge-based college-education-requiring fields and you can't have an entire economy based on nursing.

Neither Romney nor any of the candidates will be able to nor have the will to fix this nation's problems, but at least Romney had the right spirit to some extent. Ultimately--we are going to have to bring the jobs back. Ever heard of a tariff? The federal government could institute a zero-dollar trade deficit policy, deport all of the illegals and work visa holders, put a moratorium on legal immigration or reduce it to pre-1965 levels, and require that the American economy stay in America. What if foreign products could no longer be imported into the United States and we had to manufacture our own automobiles and parts? What if we had to make our own computer components and naval vessels?

It's disheartening to see that so many Americans who claim to support free market economics are afraid of having a closed American free market. At some point they concluded that the "free market" needs a huge labor subsidy of impoverished people from other, mostly non-free market countries. However, according to real free market theory, as long as we have capitalism internally our nation's economy should thrive.

Aside from having to import certain natural resources that we may not possess, I don't see any metaphysical reason why we can't manufacture goods and produce services right here in the United States.

My prediction: The nation's politicians, media pundits, professors, and economists will continue to spoon feed Americans the opiate-of-the-masses du jour -- education. Education for jobs that are unavailable in the quantities needed will be hailed as our nation's economic savior. I expect that the masses will buy into it. In the meantime, illegals will continue to swarm into the country and our policy of mass legal immigration will continue. The percentage of the American populace that is middle class will shrivel and the United States will become a South American-like impoverished and overpopulated third world country.

It isn't too late to avoid this fate, but I doubt that Americans have enough awareness and enough knowledge of economics and a sense of rational selfish interest to do what is necessary. The international trade dogma, the free market dogma, the notion of meritocracy (work hard and you'll succeed no matter what), and economic optimism are too heavily entrenched for the American populace to identify its real economic problems. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Americans, in mass, never figure it out.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,848,211 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadedWest View Post
That's the current condition, not a forecast.
No, these are current conditions as of January 22nd (last update):

US Drought Monitor

The map I posted earlier:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/product...db/lbfinal.gif

..indicates long term "impacts responding to precipitation over the course of several months to a few years, such as reservoir content, groundwater and lake levels". In other words, drought levels have reached a point that it will take a combination of a long period of time and a drastic amount of inputs (precipitation) to correct the issue. Didn't I just read that they starting to implement nuclear power plant shutdowns in the Carolinas now due to lack of water?

But much like our own President's administration, instead of targeting conservation of water like higher water rates, water taxes, new building codes for water usage, permanent water restrictions, etc.., they are looking at damning up more rivers to build more reservoirs.

Last edited by magellan; 01-28-2008 at 06:47 AM..
 
Old 01-28-2008, 09:24 AM
 
83 posts, read 66,406 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
You think Romney was full of it and that McCain speaks the truth? McCain speaks the truth for what will happen if we continue to have business-as-usual in Washington.

So, what kinds of jobs do you think Michigan (or any state) will be able to get? Just what should Michiganders and Americans retrain and reeducate for?

IT jobs? Those were sent to India. Computer programming? Those were sent to India. Sadly, a great many knowledge-based jobs can be offshored too. Many knowledge-based college-education-requiring jobs can be offshored. Everything from financial analysis to patent law, interpreting radiological scans, animation, architecture and engineering, to name a few. In the meantime, a great many domestic jobs are being filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas, displacing Americans, and science as a viable career field with a high probability of success has been dead for decades.

If we aren't going to do something to protect ourselves from global labor arbitrage, then what is our nation to do? That's why I'm glad that McCain lost. I doubt Romney understands all of this or would do much better, but it doesn't bother me that McCain lost. At some point this nation will have to address the economic force of global labor arbitrage lest we become an overpopulated impoverished third world country, just like the nations we're trying to merge our economy with now.

The job market might be better in other states, but what kinds of jobs are people finding? The U.S. economy is transforming itself into a low-wage service-based economy. According to the BLS employment stats, we have jobs for bartenders and waitresses but there are few new white collar openings in knowledge-based college-education-requiring fields and you can't have an entire economy based on nursing.

Neither Romney nor any of the candidates will be able to nor have the will to fix this nation's problems, but at least Romney had the right spirit to some extent. Ultimately--we are going to have to bring the jobs back. Ever heard of a tariff? The federal government could institute a zero-dollar trade deficit policy, deport all of the illegals and work visa holders, put a moratorium on legal immigration or reduce it to pre-1965 levels, and require that the American economy stay in America. What if foreign products could no longer be imported into the United States and we had to manufacture our own automobiles and parts? What if we had to make our own computer components and naval vessels?

It's disheartening to see that so many Americans who claim to support free market economics are afraid of having a closed American free market. At some point they concluded that the "free market" needs a huge labor subsidy of impoverished people from other, mostly non-free market countries. However, according to real free market theory, as long as we have capitalism internally our nation's economy should thrive.

Aside from having to import certain natural resources that we may not possess, I don't see any metaphysical reason why we can't manufacture goods and produce services right here in the United States.

My prediction: The nation's politicians, media pundits, professors, and economists will continue to spoon feed Americans the opiate-of-the-masses du jour -- education. Education for jobs that are unavailable in the quantities needed will be hailed as our nation's economic savior. I expect that the masses will buy into it. In the meantime, illegals will continue to swarm into the country and our policy of mass legal immigration will continue. The percentage of the American populace that is middle class will shrivel and the United States will become a South American-like impoverished and overpopulated third world country.

It isn't too late to avoid this fate, but I doubt that Americans have enough awareness and enough knowledge of economics and a sense of rational selfish interest to do what is necessary. The international trade dogma, the free market dogma, the notion of meritocracy (work hard and you'll succeed no matter what), and economic optimism are too heavily entrenched for the American populace to identify its real economic problems. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Americans, in mass, never figure it out.
You are an angel of truth
 
Old 01-28-2008, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,848,211 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
You think Romney was full of it and that McCain speaks the truth? McCain speaks the truth for what will happen if we continue to have business-as-usual in Washington.

So, what kinds of jobs do you think Michigan (or any state) will be able to get? Just what should Michiganders and Americans retrain and reeducate for?

IT jobs? Those were sent to India. Computer programming? Those were sent to India. Sadly, a great many knowledge-based jobs can be offshored too. Many knowledge-based college-education-requiring jobs can be offshored. Everything from financial analysis to patent law, interpreting radiological scans, animation, architecture and engineering, to name a few. In the meantime, a great many domestic jobs are being filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas, displacing Americans, and science as a viable career field with a high probability of success has been dead for decades.

If we aren't going to do something to protect ourselves from global labor arbitrage, then what is our nation to do? That's why I'm glad that McCain lost. I doubt Romney understands all of this or would do much better, but it doesn't bother me that McCain lost. At some point this nation will have to address the economic force of global labor arbitrage lest we become an overpopulated impoverished third world country, just like the nations we're trying to merge our economy with now.

The job market might be better in other states, but what kinds of jobs are people finding? The U.S. economy is transforming itself into a low-wage service-based economy. According to the BLS employment stats, we have jobs for bartenders and waitresses but there are few new white collar openings in knowledge-based college-education-requiring fields and you can't have an entire economy based on nursing.

Neither Romney nor any of the candidates will be able to nor have the will to fix this nation's problems, but at least Romney had the right spirit to some extent. Ultimately--we are going to have to bring the jobs back. Ever heard of a tariff? The federal government could institute a zero-dollar trade deficit policy, deport all of the illegals and work visa holders, put a moratorium on legal immigration or reduce it to pre-1965 levels, and require that the American economy stay in America. What if foreign products could no longer be imported into the United States and we had to manufacture our own automobiles and parts? What if we had to make our own computer components and naval vessels?

It's disheartening to see that so many Americans who claim to support free market economics are afraid of having a closed American free market. At some point they concluded that the "free market" needs a huge labor subsidy of impoverished people from other, mostly non-free market countries. However, according to real free market theory, as long as we have capitalism internally our nation's economy should thrive.

Aside from having to import certain natural resources that we may not possess, I don't see any metaphysical reason why we can't manufacture goods and produce services right here in the United States.

My prediction: The nation's politicians, media pundits, professors, and economists will continue to spoon feed Americans the opiate-of-the-masses du jour -- education. Education for jobs that are unavailable in the quantities needed will be hailed as our nation's economic savior. I expect that the masses will buy into it. In the meantime, illegals will continue to swarm into the country and our policy of mass legal immigration will continue. The percentage of the American populace that is middle class will shrivel and the United States will become a South American-like impoverished and overpopulated third world country.

It isn't too late to avoid this fate, but I doubt that Americans have enough awareness and enough knowledge of economics and a sense of rational selfish interest to do what is necessary. The international trade dogma, the free market dogma, the notion of meritocracy (work hard and you'll succeed no matter what), and economic optimism are too heavily entrenched for the American populace to identify its real economic problems. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Americans, in mass, never figure it out.
So you'd like America to become an insular protectionist socialistic state? It didn't work for Japan, China and the former Soviet Bloc countries in the mid 1900's, and it's not working for countries like North Korea now. Why would it work for the U.S.?

While I don't disagree that the "fair" trade agreements are hardly fair, closing our borders to trade would destroy our economy. It would be the same thing if Michigan decided to close its borders to trade and just rely on Michiganians buying and selling goods and services to each other. Disaster, for everyone. The companies that ARE doing well in Michigan are those that sell their products and services to other state and countries. Even the Detroit 3 are having record sales in other (developing) countries.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Texas
2,394 posts, read 4,085,172 times
Reputation: 1411
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
No, these are current conditions as of January 22nd (last update):

US Drought Monitor

The map I posted earlier:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/product...db/lbfinal.gif

..indicates long term "impacts responding to precipitation over the course of several months to a few years, such as reservoir content, groundwater and lake levels".
That's where it stands now, not a forecast of future rain. Look at old versions of that kind of map and you will find that some droughts are persistent (in arid parts of the country) but that most droughts in areas with normal levels of precipitation eventually reverse themselves.

Do you remember when the state of California was going to be depopulated (or so they said) by drought? Well, that one ended when a couple of rainy seasons filled up the reservoirs again.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,848,211 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadedWest View Post
That's where it stands now, not a forecast of future rain. Look at old versions of that kind of map and you will find that some droughts are persistent (in arid parts of the country) but that most droughts in areas with normal levels of precipitation eventually reverse themselves.

Do you remember when the state of California was going to be depopulated (or so they said) by drought? Well, that one ended when a couple of rainy seasons filled up the reservoirs again.

The problem is is that many people, including Georgia's governor, see the current severe drought as a rain problem (fix the supply and all will be well). When really it's a "demand" problem. This isn't the first major drought that area has seen. They had another as recently as 2002. I was in Georgia back in the early 90's and Lake Lanier was unbelievably low, and basically non-navigable by boat.

Also, California has lost almost 1 Million people since 2000 to out-migration, and nearly 3 Million since 1991. Population growth there is due solely to international immigration (Mexican immigration mainly) and people having babies.

But I think I might be perpetuating this topic going "off-topic".
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Vero Beach, FL
897 posts, read 2,824,304 times
Reputation: 474
Look on the forum threads to all those that are looking to move to GA, NC & SC - where the drought has hit the hardest. Also take a look at the major metro newspapers in these states. These areas can't take much more - drought, unemployment (yes - they've lost jobs, too), overcrowded schools, traffic, rising crime rates, etc ...

Southern states are going to have to start raising taxes. They just have not been able to keep up with the growth - it's been so out of control with illegal immigration and transplants from all over the US.

Give it a few years and the South's cost of living is going to be very high. The Northern States and CA are going to have to find ways to draw people back or retain their current populations.

The trend all around the US just cannot continue.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 08:35 PM
 
118 posts, read 1,045,401 times
Reputation: 168
I think I'm headed to either California or Florida. I only have one reason for leaving: winter!
 
Old 01-28-2008, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,394 posts, read 4,085,172 times
Reputation: 1411
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
The problem is is that many people, including Georgia's governor, see the current severe drought as a rain problem (fix the supply and all will be well). When really it's a "demand" problem. This isn't the first major drought that area has seen.
You say it's a demand problem? They've had normal rain?
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