[malamute]

Originally Posted by magellan

Yes:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/product...db/lbfinal.gif

Couple that with lax land use policies and population explosion and is there any reason to believe that water shortages won't be long term? Unless they can figure out a way to affordably desalinate ocean water and affordably pipe it hundreds of miles, the SE is going to be hurting for a while. The recent severe drought only exposed a weakness that was always there, and that is much of the Atlanta area, and other cities in the SE, sit on high ground where all the water in their watersheds flows away from them.

And I agree IUGON, in Michigan we seem to have the worst of both worlds: too many Rush Limbaugh conservatives and too many UAW liberals (which aren't really progressives).

I don't understand that map. How can northern Michigan and the UP be yellow if southern Arizona is yellow? Arizona is a desert and Michigan is surrounded by water.

[daisymay4me]

For a state that is on the brink you sure are worried about a state [arizona] that is doing leaps and bounds better then the best citys in michigan. I would pick the log out your own eye.................

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by magellan

So you'd like America to become an insular protectionist socialistic state? It didn't work for Japan, China and the former Soviet Bloc countries in the mid 1900's, and it's not working for countries like North Korea now. Why would it work for the U.S.?

While I don't disagree that the "fair" trade agreements are hardly fair, closing our borders to trade would destroy our economy. It would be the same thing if Michigan decided to close its borders to trade and just rely on Michiganians buying and selling goods and services to each other. Disaster, for everyone. The companies that ARE doing well in Michigan are those that sell their products and services to other state and countries. Even the Detroit 3 are having record sales in other (developing) countries.

(My apology if this is now off-topic.)

I'm not advocating outright socialism, just trade protectionism and a zero-dollar trade deficit policy. (Warren Buffet proposed using an import credits system where every dollar of exports would generate a dollar of import credits.) The goal should be to level the playing field for American goods and services so that any foreign goods and services that are viable in the U.S. market are viable not for reasons of labor arbitrage or even regulatory, tax, or environmental arbitrage but because they would still be the best values even if they were produced in the U.S.

It's completely illegitimate to compare trade protectionism to Soviet, Chinese, or North Korean communism. Modern day Japan is a much better comparison. Why do you think that the Japanese are doing so poorly? For a different perspective on Japan, check out these essays:

Japan Feigns Recession but has Great Economy for Workers:
SANE Views

Why the Sun is Still Rising
</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name="keywords" content=""> <meta name="description" content=""> <title> (http://www.fingleton.net/view_art_un.asp?Prod_ID=4 - broken link)

Can Anyone Compete with China? Lessons from Japan.
</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name="keywords" content=""> <meta name="description" content=""> <title> (http://www.fingleton.net/view_art_un.asp?Prod_ID=5 - broken link)

Author says high-tech manufacturing puts Japan at the top of the world economy, above even the United States.
Off the Economic Radar with Eamonn Fingleton | www.japaninc.com

If Michigan closed its border, it would be a problem because of a lack of division of labor and natural resources, however, if the 300+ million person United States wanted to become self-sufficient minus the few natural resources that would have to be imported, I don't see any reason why it would not be feasible. According to free market theory, as I understand it, if the rest of the world suddenly disappeared, 300 million people living under a system of capitalism on the land mass of the United States should be just fine.

I guess I'm a believer in the notion that Americans can work and produce wealth and take care of themselves and that we don't need India, China, and Japan to take care of us. Ultimately, one cannot consume more than one produces. The question is whether we'll squander our pre-existing wealth (assets, real estate, businesses) for ephemeral consumer goods and services or whether Americans will work to produce the goods and services it consumes while keeping the wealth it has already created. (When American trade deficit dollars return to the U.S., they aren't being used to purchase American labor, goods, and services, but rather our assets--our real estate and our businesses--why would they want to buy expensive American labor?)

[manabouttownws]

Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan [URL="//www.city-data.com/forum/michigan/185272-how-many-you-looking-move-out-post2647751.html#post2647751"]//pics3.city-data.com/forum/ima...s/viewpost.gif[/URL]
So you'd like America to become an insular protectionist socialistic state? It didn't work for Japan, China and the former Soviet Bloc countries in the mid 1900's, and it's not working for countries like North Korea now. Why would it work for the U.S.?

While I don't disagree that the "fair" trade agreements are hardly fair, closing our borders to trade would destroy our economy. It would be the same thing if Michigan decided to close its borders to trade and just rely on Michiganians buying and selling goods and services to each other. Disaster, for everyone. The companies that ARE doing well in Michigan are those that sell their products and services to other state and countries. Even the Detroit 3 are having record sales in other (developing) countries.

And Free markes are not working for us now.
You point out the faults with other systems but refuse to find any faults with ours.
Our health care system is broken, if you even try to argue with this you have drunk the kool-aid and are brain dead.
Our dollar is falling like a brick our of a blimp.
we are in a war that is killing 100 of our troops every month.
Oil is at record highs.
We are doing nothing to look for alt. energy sources.
We have a pres. more interested in pard. scooter than helping the economy.
When will you conservitves understand that we do not bow down to the alter of freemarket. it is not the answer to all our needs.
It is a device that polarizes mony to the few and keep the many in financial slavery.
It gives false hope of "you to can become rich if you just work a little harder" mentality. dangling the carrot in front of the donkey if you just pull the cart a little harder you can get the prize. Sadly to may idiots in this country fall for this lie. Then they are discarded and left behind. Kind of like the battan death march, if you do not keep moving or in this case working for the man, you are left for dead. Too bad for you. Europe is growing up and we are still playing the I want to get rich too game.
Well pitchforks are rising and Me thinks they come for you my man. let them eat cake is not going to work.

[Yac]

Guys, this is getting dangerously off topic.. think about it
Yac.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by malamute

I don't understand that map. How can northern Michigan and the UP be yellow if southern Arizona is yellow? Arizona is a desert and Michigan is surrounded by water.

It doesn't matter if those areas are surrounded by water, if it doesn't translate into precipitation on the land. The UP has had a drought, both in the low amounts of snow and of rain, going on this past year, and even had some large forest fires because of it.

But as Yac said, a bit off topic.

[Coldjensens]

For those of you unhappy and looking to move because of lack of sunshine, I hope that you get outside today. I hope tha you are ahving the clear sunny day that we are. It is beautiful!

[malamute]

Originally Posted by magellan

It doesn't matter if those areas are surrounded by water, if it doesn't translate into precipitation on the land. The UP has had a drought, both in the low amounts of snow and of rain, going on this past year, and even had some large forest fires because of it.

But as Yac said, a bit off topic.

Yes I was up there when there were fires. In some of that yellow area, there might be forests drying out -- but in the SW desert, a drought isn't as noticeable with crops because they always have to irrigate. I suppose where they depend mostly on rain water, it would be bad for farmers.

[Aussie_Bob]

Originally Posted by magellan

It doesn't matter if those areas are surrounded by water, if it doesn't translate into precipitation on the land. The UP has had a drought, both in the low amounts of snow and of rain, going on this past year, and even had some large forest fires because of it.

Lack of water, jeez! Don't you guys get covered in metres of snow every year?

Here in AUstralia, we have been having a drought for 7 years and it is only just breaking now for a lot of areas. We'd love centimetres of precipitation!

[SPFL]

Many people in MI have to move, there is not work for them here. Construction is down more than in the 80s.

There is a whole generation that missed this last big down turn. I know of some people who are stubborn and have a I am not going anywhere. I guess some had that thinking in 05 just before Katrina hit NOLA. Good luck to you.